Ok, I can't wait to watch this bloggingheads thing. See y'all later.

David, are you gonna tour. Coming to Houston???

David, some people never let facts get in their way when forming an opinion! Facts are stupid things. Thus spake that other dim president, Ronald Reagan.

I suppose he meant to quote John Adams' well-known quotation, facts are stubborn things.

Ah well...facts, schmacks.

Here's an Opinion piece on New Orleans/Katrina!Reality-Based! My opinion is Nagin is the wrong man for the Rebuilding job! Think major corporate restructurings as analogies! I was just in NO a month ago, something none of you regulars have. Go visit, they need your $$$

August 31, 2006
Tales of New Orleans
By Clarence Page

NEW ORLEANS-There was never any serious doubt among those who really know New Orleans that the city would rise again after Hurricane Katrina. Though bruised and battered, the city still receives too much love and offers too much profit potential to be ignored. What is not clear a year after the storm is what kind of New Orleans the recovered city will be.

It will still be a port city and tourist town. Cargo traffic through the city's port system has returned to pre-Katrina levels, officials say. Oil and gas industries are recovering, too. Tourism and hotel business are still down, largely because of cancelled conventions, which usually book years in advance. But commitments for future conventions indicate a rebound to at least 65 percent of pre-Katrina business in 2008, according to news reports.

Yes, there will be money to be made in New Orleans. But how many evacuees will come back to earn it? A year after the storm, New Orleans is a smaller city because of tragic circumstances. Half of its previous population is gone and may never return. More than 80 percent of its land was flooded, some of it by more than 10 feet of water, for three weeks. Its broken pipes lose two gallons of drinking water per day for every gallon that is delivered to customers. Only two major hospitals are left to serve the city.

And, along with the commerce, what will become of New Orleans' unique, zestful Creole and Cajun-enriched culture? Such a question is no less pervasive in the Crescent City these days than the aroma of catfish, po boys, fried shrimp, stuffed crab, beignets, cafe au lait and red beans and rice. It's an important question to all lovers of the Big Easy's jazz and blues, Mardi Gras beads and bawdy bayou spirit.

But, whether they are here or scattered across the map in their post-Katrina diaspora, the real question I hear haunting the minds of New Orleanians is this: Can I come home again? And the toughest answer for any politician to give, other than a flat-out "no," is "That depends."

That inability to tell voters the uncomfortable truth appears to be Mayor Ray Nagin's dilemma. Although President Bush took some heavy and deserved hits to his approval ratings for his administration's slow response to the Katrina emergency, most fingers of blame for New Orleans' sluggish recovery now point to Mayor Ray Nagin.

Billions of dollars in federal rebuilding money by way of the Louisiana Recovery Authority have been held up by the city's slowness to produce a master rebuilding plan. Proposals released for public discussion earlier this year indicate the city will have a smaller "footprint." Neighborhoods that are lowest-lying or most isolated may receive few rebuilding resources, if any. In big jeopardy, for example, is the Lower Ninth Ward, home of such artists as Fats Domino, who still had a home there when he, too, was trapped by the storm.

The city's long-troubled and now-abandoned public housing developments may be demolished, unless their residents somehow organize themselves well enough to show a big desire to return. Everybody knows that a reduced footprint is a strong possibility, whether they like it or not. But few city leaders want to make the hard calls about which neighborhoods are going to get top or bottom priority for the city's limited recovery resources.

Instead, they sound like Nagin did on CBS "60 Minutes" Sunday, when he mused, "At the end of the day, I see the city being totally rebuilt. I see us eliminating blight, still being culturally unique with a new school system that's probably state of the art and a much more diversified economy where creative people come to live, love and play."

But, as in the past, he neatly dodged any specifics about what he means by "totally rebuilt." It's much easier to make a jolly promise that the old happy days in the 'hood will come back again than to announce the uncomfortable truth, that some neighborhoods have to be sacrificed to a very low priority, while others receive special preferences.

One critic who thinks Nagin is dangerously dragging his heels is Leonard Moore, a professor of African-American history at Louisiana State University, who's writing a book titled "Oreo in Chocolate City" about the Nagin years. "He needs to be open and honest with the people," Moore said in a telephone interview. "He needs to tell them that, I'm sorry, but this city is not going to be totally rebuilt."

Now that the city's voters, here and absentee, have put Nagin back in office, he finds it that much more difficult to present to them a future that falls short of the hometown they remember. But true leadership reveals itself not only when you're telling voters what they can have but what they can't have. That's the leadership Nagin's city is waiting to see.

Page is a Pulitzer Prize-winning syndicated columnist specializing in urban issues. He is based in Washington, D.C.

David, I know the Plamegate affair is important but is'nt it really a sidetrack?

Perhaps we should concentrate on the Administrations Constitutional violations and the violations of the rules of the Geneva Convention pertaining to times of war. These are damning issues occurring at present. Guantanamo is now, providing Israel cluster bombs is now.

Seen in the light of current events can you see my point?

I congratulate you for your new book and hope it does well.

There has to be a be a rising up of the people in the press, rising up against this Administrations' thugmanship and deliberate violations of our countries' principals we hold dear...NOW!

Today 9000 Palestinians have been seized and imprisoned by Israel without trial. Yet when Arab militants captured one Jewish soldier in Gaza and two within Lebanon, Israel's volcanic fury exploded. Down rained death on more than 1200 hapless civilians in Gaza and Lebanon. More than half of them were children.

Israel reasons that a Jewish life is so precious that hundreds of non-Jewish lives may be sacrificed to guarantee Jewish safety. This racism permeates not only Israel's behavior toward the Palestinians but Zionism's whole worldview.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
-- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Is this Bush's secret bunker?

Mount Weather is a top-security underground installation an hour's drive from Washington DC. It has its own leaders, police, fire department - and laws. A cold war relic, it has been given a new lease of life since 9/11. And no one who's been inside has ever talked.

ooh a sneaky bushco hideout!

Is this Bush's secret bunker?

Mount Weather is a top-security underground installation an hour's drive from Washington DC. It has its own leaders, police, fire department - and laws. A cold war relic, it has been given a new lease of life since 9/11. And no one who's been inside has ever talked.

ooh a sneaky bushco hideout!

Must be that undisclosed location that darth cheney frequents. How about that, we never knew, and can we keep him there?

Byron York is to journalism what Michael Brown is to emergency management. York wouldn't know a fact if his hairdresser handed it to him.

I wish Byron York would get a haircut. T

here's nothing more disgusting that an unkempt conservative. It makes you wonder what they really believe in.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."

I have a jewish findernail and I can attest to the fact it has only sentimental value. As far as what an arab is worth, I think all human life is valuable and worth protecting. The people that would do us harm, and only those people, should be restrained yet even their god-given rights should be protected just as ours are.

Doesn't those warmongers have kids and grandchildren? When I read about, and see pictures of children killed by ordonance delivered by planes and artillery sent by insane people, I automaticly think about my own family, and I'm thankful that it was'nt any of them this time. Still I can't get my mind off the dead children who never got the chance to grow up, due to the fact that a few men have the power to inflict such horror on other humans!

Well, the bloggingheads thing was OK, but it'll be alot better when you can confront York on the real issue. That sounded like a commitment for you both to meet again, so we'll be waiting!

Goal: buy your book with cash, get a handshake and a 'John Henry' from the author
Strategy: like bush, I have no idea
Tactic : keep asking if you're gonna tour, and if so, will you be coming to Houston

*crosses fingers*

Doesn't those warmongers have kids and grandchildren? When I read about, and see pictures of children killed by ordonance delivered by planes and artillery sent by insane people, I automaticly think about my own family, and I'm thankful that it was'nt any of them this time. Still I can't get my mind off the dead children who never got the chance to grow up, due to the fact that a few men have the power to inflict such horror on other humans!

Doesn't those warmongers have kids and grandchildren? When I read about, and see pictures of children killed by ordonance delivered by planes and artillery sent by insane people, I automaticly think about my own family, and I'm thankful that it was'nt any of them this time. Still I can't get my mind off the dead children who never got the chance to grow up, due to the fact that a few men have the power to inflict such horror on other humans!

3 Here's an Opinion piece on New Orleans/Katrina! Reality-Based! My opinion is Nagin is the wrong man for the . . . .

Posted by: Happy flits In at August 31, 2006 12:36 PM

My opinion is that if you learned to link the other 500? people who read this blog wouldn't have to scroll past your long cut and paste posts when they are not interested in them. Cut and paste the title, author and some paragraphs that will focus the readers attention on the thrust of the article, and provide a link so they can read your source.

If you plan to share whole articles with other www.davidcorn.com bloggers, would you please learn to link. Please.

DOGGIE DRIVER CAUSES CAR ACCIDENT!
Source: UPI
HOHHOT, China (UPI) -- A Chinese woman said her dog was behind the wheel when her car collided with oncoming traffic.
The Hohhot woman, surnamed Li, said she decided to let her dog "have a try" at steering when she saw how it "was fond of crouching on the steering wheel," The Sun reported Monday.
No injuries were reported after the car, which was being steered by the dog while Li operated the accelerator and brake, crashed into an oncoming vehicle. Both cars were reported to be slightly damaged, The Sun said.

With all this talk of leaks and leaking I now realize it is time for me to take a tinkle.

Gerald, it might be better to LEAVE a tinkle.

After a brief tinkle break I want to comment on links and articles. Some articles I link and some articles I copy and paste in full. The length of the article is also important. If there is really a good article and the not lengthy I will copy and paste. I am truly amazed as to the number of writers who share their writings and thoughts with us. I cannot keep pace with these writers.

20 Well thanks for linking, and thanks for taking the time to select the most important paragraphs when you post an partial article with a link. Now I got to go tinkle and make doody. Har har har.

Spy,

The Hezbollah kidnappings of the two Israeli soldiers must be considered in context. This was a prisoner swap game that had been going on all of the time between the two. (Screw the Gaza kidnapping--Israel downright deserves everything it gets when it comes to the Palestinians!!).

First, the Israeli soldiers were across the border in Lebanon. Second, their rescue jeep ran over a land mine, it was not a deliberate attack by Hezbollah. As I posted yesterday, the leader of Hezbollah has said that if he had known of the massive irrational response by Israel and the devastation it has caused Lebanon, he would have never considered the kidnapping.

By the way, I don't know if this was already posted here, but Jesse Jackson has reported that the two Israeli soldiers are alive.

Nasrallah cites Seymour Hersh's New Yorker article on Bush's intentions towards Iran when he rightly claims that there was a U.S. plan for Israel to attack Hezbollah in either late September or late October as a precursor to the planned attaack on Iran. Israel was just acting opportunistically using the kidnapping as the pretense for invasion of Lebanon. I'll post the article again.

First, I want to say, Jeanne was right, nah, nah, nah. She told you naysayers that Rove leaked initially to Cooper! It has been cited by reporters since the first inklings of Armitage's gossip to Novak came out. Rove beat him to the punch by a least two weeks.

Now, I know Erling already has gotten this news, but guess what? They found "The Scream"! YEAH!

Munch's Stolen "The Scream" Found by Police

Den,

I forgot to mention that David Corn has indicated more than once that the book does delve into the fraudulent selling of the war and I'm sure much more. Afterall, it is David Corn!

Be patient my dear friend. David's doing us all proud.

Gerald,

You're too funny. So are you Den. Even Doody got a shot in there.

Capt and all,

Lookie here! California's helping the stop global warming cause!

State on Verge of Greenhouse Gas Restrictions

The Senate votes to slash emissions by 25%, the first such action in the nation. Business groups are angry, but the governor is on board.

Carey, I'm not really concerned about the "selling of the war", that stuff is THREE years or better old, and is a moot point.

Time to start beating the drum about the CURRENT major issues and leave the other stuff to history.

So much time spent hashing and re-hashing the lead up to war. Sorry if I sound abrasive but as long as we keep dwelling on past events we cannot deal with the NOW events effectively. I am totally tweaked on the Diebold crisis, Israels complicity with the US to re-create a holocaust in Lebanon. More war drums beating for Iran when we have not cleaned up the mess we made in Iraq.

Davids book is a good thing but will it secure the criminal convictions of all involved? That is what is needed, to put the neo-cons behind bars NOW! Before they cause more death and destruction.

The evidence is there in plain sight, why is nothing happening? Something is VERY WRONG!

Spy and all,

Here's the article on Hezbollah's regrets and, more importantly, the citing of the U.S. plans for an imminent attack of Iran. If you didn't read it before, it's rather interesting and informative.

Hezbollah Chief Indicates Regret for Kidnappings

Here's the most pertinent paragraphs:

The cleric said that Israel and the United States had been planning a strike on Hezbollah before the kidnapping of the soldiers, an operation apparently aimed at a prisoner swap. Nasrallah cited a recent article in the New Yorker Magazine by Seymour Hersh, which alleged that Pentagon planners wanted Israel to attack Hezbollah as a precursor to an attack on Iran.

"The war was planned for the end of September or the end of October with or without an excuse," Nasrallah told the interviewer. "There was a U.S. decision. All the elements indicate it was not about the two prisoners."

_________________________________________________

Hersh, as I said yesterday, is always far ahead of the pack. As is Wayne Madsen. This was a plan concocted by Cheney, Netenyahu and Natan Sharansky. (sp?)

Byron York correctly responds to David Corn:

'Corn mentioned that I had referred to him as a "conspiracy theorist" of the CIA-leak case. He didn't like that, but when I pointed to some of the stories he had written about the case — for example, his articles entitled "Rove Scandal: A Conspiracy Charge for the White House?" and "The Cheney Conspiracy?" — he declined to talk about that, too. And he refused to discuss his website, bushlies.com — all, apparently, on the advice of his publicist.'

So, he wasn't going to talk about the book, he was going to answer Corn's question about when he'd ever positted conspiracies. From one of the two articles York mentioned we can find:

'...check out Title 18, Section 371, of the US Code, he advises. It's entitled "Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud the United States."

'This two paragraph section is straightforward and rather wide-ranging:

'If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

'If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.

'Under this law, if there was any conspiring among the leakers--say, one White House aide suggested to another that they use the classified information in hand to disclose Valerie Wilson's connection to the CIA in order to undermine Wilson's account of his trip to Niger--then the acts of each conspirator can essentially be charged to the other(s).'

That's the reason Corn didn't want to talk with York.

Den,

I so totally agree with you. David, in his various columns, has addressed these issues. We have to wait and see what the book actually entails.

About putting the neocons behind bars, do you think that will ever happen? Once the Democrats, or at least sane people, come to power (if they can overcome the Diebold corruption, which, for now, I sincerely doubt) they will have so much mess to clean up, that it will take top priority.

I'm afraid Seymour Hersh is correct. Even though his most recent article sounded the toll for hope that the Generals would step forward and stop the nonsense, in reality, they can't really ever disregard Rumsfeld's or Bush's orders. The plans for a strike in Iran are full speed ahead. God help us, please.

Den, I posted you an article yesterday on "Dark Alliance", about the CIA involvement in drug-running. It's somewhere towards the end of the last thread. Actually, the article was a few weeks old so I could only link the abstract, but I typed in the rest of the article because I thought it important enough.

I almost forgot! I'm sure Crooks and Liars has this on their blog, I haven't looked yet, but EVERYONE, check out Keith Olbermann's rampage last night!!!!! Wowza! Did he go, oh so mightily, after Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush for daring to state that dissenters were immoral and undermining our democracy. Jesus! Olbermann turned the tables on them and basically suggested it was they who were the fascists. I was jumping for joy.

DEN: I'm not really concerned about the "selling of the war", that stuff is THREE years or better old, and is a moot point.

The subhumans who sold the damn thing are still in office, Iraqis are dying at a rate of > 3,000/month, and hordes of moon-faced American war pigs are getting ever fatter on taxpayer money (the highest MEDIAN income in the country -- $98,000! -- is now in Loudon County, VA, the DC suburb that the war merchants call home).

So the fact that we were conned into this slaughter is hardly a moot point.

IF the Dems regain the House in November, impeachment is, or should be, a strong possibility.

Patrick, if the code York put forth was applied, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush himself are all guilty of conspiracy. Lets review, No-bid contracts for Halliburton and KBR, Downing street memo, renditions to foreign countries of suspected terrorists, illegal wiretaps without FISA and many many more things this bunch of overpaid elitist crimminals have together crammed down the throats of the American people including you!

Better remove your Kool Aid IV and pay attention to what is going on around you instead of chasing reporters who choose to expose the theivery.

Since it seems that war with Iran is emminent I figure that it will be the cause of the collapse of the US as we know it today. No troops to speak of and air campaign won't get the job done. Invading Iran is going to take a lot more than empty rhetoric from the current crop of doofuses in the power circle. Calling names won't get the job done, and these won't be "dead enders, baathists, or saddam supporters" They will be patriots defending their country against an imperialist agressor that has not right to attack without provocation. A war criminal of the first order. Well seeing the bush bots are so hot for this one, (another bush war that he won't win by the way) how many are signing up to go and invade another middle eastern soverign nation? Any takers? Seems quiet out there, heroes all as long as they don't have to do any of the fighting and dying for their fuerhers war. Gee what cowards are the bushies, republicans, brain dead, no soul, no bravery unless it is attacking defensless countries. Hell let's invade Venezuela and see how that goes, or Cuba as well that is closer anyway. Where are we to get the soldiers for this, the money for this, hell even the bullets for this? ANy ideas? Nope didn't figure they had any. Yep this martinet of a president has no clue, no strategy, no idea of anything other than wanting daddies approval and help when he screws up. Wonder where we are all going to be in six years. Well the ones that aren't taking a dirt nap will sure be meaner and leaner than they are now, if they make it. Going to be a whole new world and not the one the neo cons are selling. Enjoy your new lifestyle, you deserve it mostly.

Carey, it is called projection, WIKI sez:

In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defence mechanism in which one attributes ("projects") to others, one's own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. The theory was developed by Sigmund Freud and further refined by his daughter Anna Freud.

In this case rummy is indeed the fascist.

Here's the video and transcript of Keith Olbermann last night.

Keith Olbermann

Drewp, I agree completely with one exception, this administration has committed many more notorious crimes in addition to the false info. to go to war. My question is with all the evidence of crimminal activity is nothing being done? Gitmo, wiretaps, direct violations of the Constitution? or is the lead up to war more important.

With enough evidence to make the shyist prosecuter able to swing the hammer and pound these neo-con crooks to prison it is but a bit piece in a much larger puzzle.

Carey, not to forget Howard Dean was on KO too and did not mince any words either, also at C&L.

Hey, Den, get with the program. Corn's claiming he doesn't push conspiracies.

Btw, further into that column I quoted from he says:

'Nabbing Karl Rove on a conspiracy? To some that might sound rather appropriate.'

Den,

There are all kinds of ways to psychoanalyze these assholes, but the one most important label is "criminal", as you've noted.

YEAH, I forgot about Howard! That was the first time he's been invited on Countdown too! Dean is doing marvelously as Chairman, don't you think? Moving the primary and caucus dates up, and getting a Western and Southern state in! That's democracy. That's been attempted for ten years now and Dean finally got it through. He's a very good man.

WTF

The destruction and devastation of striking Iran will be global and yes, the downfall of the U.S. We were already on the downslide, even without Bushco's help. He's just upping the timetable. The U.S. and all Americans have to learn to share, in fact, will be forcibly taught to share. The same holds true in the lessons of global warming. People will not just have learn to change, they will be forced to.

Drewp,

That stat on Loudon county having the highest median income is most telling. I didn't know that.

Den--Have faith. Things take such a long time. Watergate took years and years. I remember impatiently not believing, what with the Vietnam War and all, how it could take so long for average Americans and their leaders to catch up.

You know that tired old proverb, "Darkest before dawn".

A new page released by NIST of FAQ's and answers. Here's just one of 'em...

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis?

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.
---
NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.
===================================
Sorry for the length, but that's actually a shortened version to answer #2.
Read them all here...
fact sheet released Aug. 30, 2006

Can't understand why they bothered, but it be slam dunk time for the fruit loops.

National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

Answers to Frequently Asked Questions

(NIST NCSTAR throughout this document refers to one of the 43 volumes that comprise NIST’s final report on the WTC Towers issued in October 2005. All sections of the report listed in this document are available at http://wtc.nist.gov.)

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.

Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

Both the NIST calculations and interviews with survivors and firefighters indicated that the aircraft impacts severed the water pipes that carried the water to the sprinkler systems. The sprinklers were not operating on the principal fire floors.

However, there were ample sources of the water in the stairwells. The water pipes ran vertically within the stairwells. Moreover, there would have been copious water from the broken restroom supply lines and from the water tanks that supplied the initial water for the sprinklers. Thus, it is not surprising that evacuating occupants encountered a lot of water.

Even if the automatic sprinklers had been operational, the sprinkler systems—which were installed in accordance with the prevailing fire safety code—were designed to suppress a fire that covered as much as 1,500 square feet on a given floor. This amount of coverage is capable of controlling almost all fires that are likely to occur in an office building. On Sept. 11, 2001, the jet-fuel ignited fires quickly spread over most of the 40,000 square feet on several floors in each tower. This created infernos that could not have been suppressed even by an undamaged sprinkler system, much less one that had been appreciably degraded.

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

Nearly all indoor large fires, including those of the principal combustibles in the WTC towers, produce large quantities of optically thick, dark smoke. This is because, at the locations where the actual burning is taking place, the oxygen is severely depleted and the combustibles are not completely oxidized to colorless carbon dioxide and water.

The visible part of fire smoke consists of small soot particles whose formation is favored by the incomplete combustion associated with oxygen-depleted burning. Once formed, the soot from the tower fires was rapidly pushed away from the fires into less hot regions of the building or directly to broken windows and breaks in the building exterior. At these lower temperatures, the soot could no longer burn away. Thus, people saw the thick dark smoke characteristic of burning under oxygen-depleted conditions.

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

NIST believes that the persons seen were away from any strong heat source and most likely in an area that at the time was a point where the air for combustion was being drawn into the building to support the fires. Note that people were observed only in the openings in WTC 1.

According to the International Standard ISO/TS 13571, people will be in severe pain within seconds if they are near the radiant heat level generated by a large fire. Thus, it is not surprising that none of the photographs show a person standing in those gaps where there also was a sizable fire.

The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below.

Therefore, the people observed in these openings must have survived the aircraft impact and moved—once the fireballs had dissipated—to the openings where the temperatures were cooler and the air was clearer than in the building interior.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage
from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.

For additional information, go to: WTC Contacts | Building and Fire Research Laboratory | NIST


Privacy Policy/Security Notice | Disclaimer | FOIA

NIST is an agency of the U.S. Commerce Department's Technology Administration.

Last updated: August 30, 2006

Carey, sorry my faith ran out, but I feel a sense of urgency as I said to run these thugs outa Dodge before they fully implement their plans, not after the fact.

Kinda late to close the barn door after all the cows ran away.(Old redneck proverb) But then again what choice do we have as a captive audience? And dont think they dont know that.

hmmm... part of answer #7

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

Carey: That stat on Loudon county having the highest median income is most telling.

With wages failing to keep pace with inflation, the Bush "recovery" is no great shakes.

But the true feebleness of Bush's hackneyed trickle-down approach becomes apparent if you factor in the staggering amounts we're spending to kill and the years of historically low interest rates. Then again, we knew this "voodoo economics" didn't work back in '92, after 12 years of it left us with, "It's the economy, stupid."

oh shyt! MP5, why'd you post the whole thing? I linked the page for people interested. Posting the whole thing will just piss people off. ugh!

MP5, NIST is an agency of the U.S. Commerce Department's Technology Administration.

Answer this please, who is the one at which the buck stops?

Maybe this guy:William Jeffrey is the 13th Director of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), sworn into the office on July 26, 2005. He was nominated by President Bush on May 25, 2005, and confirmed by the U.S. Senate on July 22, 2005.

Nominated by WHO? and WHY?

You believe what you want to believe, I believe you are wrong.

If anyone would care to look at Dr.Jeffery's bio

@40) WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below).

sorry, but photographs taken during the construction of wtc would beg to differ with NIST's diagrams of the trusses.
photos!

but i don't wish to argue with you so i'll just admit right here and now that there was absolutely nothing at all suspicious about an aluminum 767 disappearing entirely into the side of the steel/concrete wtc2 without a single inch of it breaking off and falling to the street below and only after it was entirely inside the tower did an explosion occur which left a hole smaller that the 767 appeared to be and then 56 minutes later after the low temperature oxygen starved small fire was almost out the wtc2 exploded beginning near the top into concrete powder with massive steel columns being ejected upward and outward, some ending up a good 400' away and the powdering of the concrete and ejection of steel columns continuing in a wave all the way to the bottom of the tower in only 10 seconds. nothing at all suspicious. furthermore anyone who remains skeptical at this stage of the game after a 10,000 page report by the govt entity NIST which despite being 10,000 pages does not go into any detail whatsoever should rightly be considered a conspiracy theorist and needs to get a grip on reality.

You believe what you want to believe, I believe you are wrong.

Den, you're saying the director 'got to' his 85 experts and the 125 private-sector experts and got them to make up evidence? They are, or were, all in on a conspiracy??
Sheeeeshh! What've you been schmokin'?... or dropping?

...an aluminum 767 disappearing entirely into the side of the steel/concrete wtc2 without a single inch of it breaking off

haha Even your 'god' Steven Jones don't agree with you James. Or wait, you fell on the economist Reynolds side of the 'scholars' war, dintcha?
Mythical trusses, huh? lol

#42 Den

That's just it, isn't it? GOPers hold the reins of power. There's nothing Democrats or anyone can do about it.

Asshole Central=GOP (and some Democrats)

Alan,

Never fear about length of posts regarding something so important. This is what many experts have been speculating. No certification of steel, faulty building requirements (if they were even followed) etc.

The secrets of 9/11 will never be completely revealved. Questions will always remain. But a controlled demolition? More likely, previous knowledge (by whomever) is the ultimately criminal factor.

Scientific progress, peer review, and all that:

Today's thread on Real Climate briefly discusses the follow-up to a Congressional hearing in which a Dr. Wegman was critical of the work of Mike Mann, the now well-known global temperature 'hockey stick'.

Read Mike Mann's responses to five follow-up questions (a .pdf file) submitted by the committee. It offers a good explanation of the role of peer review, replication, and the general structure of the active sciences. (The comments are fairly good, too.)

Alan when it comes to Bush crony appointments I have doubts. His minions give him what he wants to hear like any other government agency. They know who signs the checks and what happens to non-conformist whistle blowers. Better recheck your expert figures eh?

James, you sound like the "Bush never lied" crowd when you keep repeating things that are proven wrong. By repeating it over and over DOES NOT make it true. The 'concrete into powder' is one of the craziest. The majority of the 'powder' was gypsum (sheetrock), which by the way, is another product with sulphur in it. So there goes your 'sulphur proves thermite' theory too.

DEN --- I read Dr. Jeffrey's NIST bio. Looks to be a standard science policy wog. If he had had the necessary experience back then, he is the sort that even Clinton or Carter would have appointed to this position.

And, by the way, you ought to read the NIST press release carefully with regard to what they are considering for WTC 7...

Better recheck your expert figures eh?

Nah, that's just crazy. Over 200 real scientists against a handful of wackos? You know those book-learning scientific geeks, they live for work, and most of 'em I would bet don't even think about politics. But supposing they did...
What's the odds of exactly 100% of 'em agreeing to a scam. Not one resignation in the bunch. Nah, you guys should give that conspiracy crap up.

*live for their work (the science)

Carey,
David Corn himself has asked for us to police ourselves and not make such lengthy posts as it eats bandwidth. MP5 is free to choose whatever source he deems fit but should have provided an excerpt with a link to the rest.

Okay, what is up with the "thorough investigation" by the NIST but there is this:

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition?

Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

More facts

I agree Alan. If one believes the 911 conspiracy then one will believe most everything. I am distrustful of government and all its' bloated bureaucracy, but the government being competent enough to pull that off? The only thing competent in government is our military. And that is because there is something vital at stake. Their lives. Government bureaucratic blunders and ineptness is rewarded by a deep pocket, the taxpayer. They could care less how inept they are as long as those taxes keep pouring in.

you keep repeating things that are proven wrong. By repeating it over and over DOES NOT make it true. The 'concrete into powder' is one of the craziest. The majority of the 'powder' was gypsum (sheetrock), which by the way, is another product with sulphur in it. So there goes your 'sulphur proves thermite' theory too.

and yet when you watch videos of the towers exploding into dust from the top down in only 10 seconds and you see the massive clouds of almost every inch of the towers' powdered concrete spreading out in a giant cloud which enveloped the entire neighborhood you can't help but say "gosh look at all that gypsum wallboard!"

i don't have a sulphur proves thermite theory. thermite does not account for the energy that it took to render all the concrete into powder while simultaneously ejecting the massive steel columns up and out in only 10 seconds any more than gravity could account for the energy that it took.
whatever. there are many scientists, engineers, pilots, military men and former politicos who beg to differ with the conclusions that NIST and the 9/11 commission officially reported.
it doesn't matter anymore. american idle or everybody loves raymond is probably on.

Let me clarify my positon on 9/11. I DON'T KNOW!

I do agree with Gore Vidal though, who once accused Bushco of being completely responsible from the outset. He points to the total imcompetence of this administration asking how on earth they could possibly pull off something like 9/11.

QUOTE OF THE DAY from the War Room in Salon

HERE

#24 Carey, without a sense of humor our present government would drive people crazy with their lies, projecting of their true fascist intentions, fearmongering, and their incessant planning of endless wars. I must keep near me prayer and a sense of humor in order to survive our present day fascist government.

#52 David B.

Perfect.

James,

If anybody had anything to do with 9/11 other than al Queda, it would have to have been Mossad. I'm pretty sure you agree.

#62 Carey, they are really pushing the fear tactics upon Americans and it will be accepted and bought by NASCAR dads, soccer moms, security moms, neocons, religious fascists, American fascists, Christian fascists, and Jewish fascists. The fascists will be hard to beat in the 2006 mid-term elections. Fear and warmongering are as American as mother and country.

TRH,
You bring up government ineptness. I am not inclined to believe 9/11 was a total govenment setup either but do you consider the possibility ineptness was not the problem, that instead the few at the top knew the intel said something big was coming and intentionally made decisions which allowed the attacks to happen to get their new "Pearl Harbor"? I can't cite a source at this time but I do remember hearing the planes stationed at Pearl Harbor were rearranged before the Japanese attack making it harder for pilots to take off and mount a defence...

Why have Americans forgotten the eight words of Jesus of Nazareth, LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU?

Let us practice these words!

"What does the Lord require of you: To act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8)

9/11 was indeed an extraordinary event with many suspicious twists and turns. All the keyboard pounding in the world will not uncover the truth behind it. Since this is America and all, everyone is entitled to their opinions of what really happened.

Mine is that it was a Mossad project using unsuspecting Arabs to fly planes into the towers, once that was done the towers were brought down by pre-positioned thermite charges, placed by agents of the Mossad during the Labor Day weekend while everyone was out of town. The expected effect was achieved, we got involved in the Middle East mess, we did Israels dirty work and continue to do so to this day.

Ruthless and cunning, tragic and unneccessary.

I watched the event unfold from the first report and was due to fly back east that day, disturbs me to this day.

This is where we take our stand. We stand for justice. We can do no other. Justice alone guarantees a peace that will lead to reconciliation with a life of security and prosperity for all the peoples of our land. By standing on the side of justice, we open ourselves to the work of peace -- and working for peace makes us children of God.

"God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19)

Patriarch Michel Sabbah
Latin Patriarchate, Jerusalem

Archbishop Swerios Malki Mourad,
Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, Jerusalem

Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal,
Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East

Bishop Munib Younan,
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land

Shalom

Here is what America and the world need in order to attain peace and justice on our planet for all of God's children. Here is also what I believe God wants for His children and His vision for the world.

Shalom translated means peace but it is much more than peace. Shalom is a vision of social wholeness; a state of well being for all, where everyone has access to the goods of creation intended to meet the needs of all. Shalom is the substance of the biblical vision of one community embracing all creation where all enjoy the resources that make communal harmony joyous and effective.

Shalom is nothing less than God's intended vision of the world, a dream of God that resists our tendencies for division, hostility, fear, lust, and misery. If there is to be well-being, it will not be just for the isolated and insulated individuals, it is security and prosperity granted to the whole community: the poor, the widow, the orphan, the immigrant, the tax collector and the sinner, the despised and the rejected, young and old, the have and the have nots, the powerful and the dependent. We are in it together. Together we stand before God's blessings and together we receive the gift of life. Shalom comes only to the inclusive embracing community that excludes no one.

Imagine (My Version)

Imagine there's a Heaven
It's easy if you try
And a hope of no hell below us
Above us the sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And a religion of brotherly love too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can

God speaks many times in the Bible and He stresses for you and me the words, BE NOT AFRAID!

Be not afraid to love, show merccy, and pursue the path of justice and peace.

BE NOT AFRAID!!!

Cornposters, are you able to witness how far Bush and his Nazi cabal are removed from Christ and Christianity?

This morning I read someone say in 2001 that we had a demon in the WH.

well if the most greedy corrupt govt criminals with the most diabolical implements of destruction known to man in possession of the greatest budget and resources on the planet are just too incompetent to have been the perpetrators of 9/11 then how in the world could 19 neanderthal morons have pulled it off?

the claim of govt incompetence is ludicrous at best.
---
no carey, i don't believe the mossad were behind 9/11 any more than bin laden was.

Well of course the government knew the towers were a target. There was an attempt to blow them up in 1993. Don't forget, Clinton was inaugurated earlier that year. Is he responsible for the deaths that occurred in the first because he maybe saw something big coming but ignored it? I think not. Radicals will do anything and everything to achieve their objective. Not only do those in the intelligence agencies need to think like a radical, they need to think ahead of them. I don't like the term "war on terror," I prefer the "battle against terrorists." Only a minor amount of those who practice the Islamic faith are radicals. Much the same that only a minor amount of christians are Timothy McVeigh.

#66 eyes_open

You are correct about Pearl Harbor. I'm not going to go to the bother of finding it, but there is ample evidence Pearl Harbor was also a result of purposely ignoring previous knowledge. WWII, however, as we all know, was a valid war. Even then, though, there were war profiteers everywhere.

#69 Den

Poignant. A well-thought out theory too. Most all of the theories here have been thought out well. As you say though, we will never know the complete truth.

My dear Gerald,

Yes, humor and prayer. Much needed, more and more each day as we pass through this precipice.

the towers were a target. There was an attempt to blow them up in 1993.

yes. and the fbi was complicit in that.

i don't like the term 'war on terror' either.
'war on arabs' is a much more accurate description.

74....I don't like the term "war on terror," I prefer the "battle against terrorists.".....
Posted by: TRH at August 31, 2006 06:19 PM
==================================================
TRH,
When "battles" have been fought (excluding the Israeli/Palestinian issue) since 1979....and have been fought on all continents, excepting Anartica, ....and all of the enemy combattants share an Imperial and Radical form of Islam, I think there is a War going on!

Recall the War on Communism, it wasn't just any single "battle" over Cambodia, Europe, Korea, Nicaragua, Philipines, Vietnam....it was a world-wide War to counter that ideology anywhere and everywhere....

Your notion of "battle against terrorists" do not give Radical Islam enough credit! I doubt the terroists consider their little struggle merely as "battle against the West". `Jihad' rings my bell!

"War on terror" is too generic...sounds like War on Rapists/Muggers/Illiteracy....What we are fighting is Radical Islam and perhaps `War on Radical Islam' is much more to the point!

Drive By-Skirmish-Battle-War/Jihad, in asccending scale!

Will Joe and Valerie Wilson Sue Richard Armitage? No.
They just want Cheney, Rove, and Libby.

By Byron York

The new attorney for Joseph and Valerie Wilson says the Wilsons do not plan to add former State Department official Richard Armitage to their lawsuit against top Bush administration officials because Armitage “did not act with the same level of malevolence” as Vice President Dick Cheney, top White House aide Karl Rove, and former Cheney aide Lewis Libby in the CIA-leak affair.

In July, the Wilsons sued Cheney, Rove, and Libby, along with ten other un-named co-defendants, charging that were part of a conspiracy to “discredit, punish and seek revenge against the plaintiffs that included, among other things, disclosing to members of the press Plaintiff Valerie Plame Wilson’s classified CIA employment.” Armitage was not named in the suit.

This week, a new book, Hubris, by the Nation’s David Corn and Newsweek’s Michael Isikoff, confirmed widespread rumors that Armitage was the original leaker in the CIA controversy.

A few weeks ago, the Wilsons made changes in their legal team, joining forces with the liberal advocacy group Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility in Washington (CREW). The Wilsons also hired the San Francisco-based firm Cotchett, Pitre, Simon & McCarthy. Constitutional lawyer Erwin Chemerinsky, who helped write the lawsuit, remains with the case.

Melanie Sloan, the executive director of CREW, is now the lead attorney for the Wilsons. In an interview with National Review Online, she said that if the account of Armitage’s outing of Plame in Hubris is correct, then “Armitage was just basically gossiping with [columnist Robert] Novak and just mentioned that Valerie worked for the CIA. His mentioning that to Novak is really not the same as the concerted effort that Cheney, Rove, and Libby made to get Valerie’s undercover identity out to the newspaper.”

“The underlying heart of the suit is about the conspiracy of these individuals to out Valerie Wilson in order to retaliate against Joseph Wilson,” Sloan continued, “and it doesn’t look at this point that Armitage was party to that plan.”

When asked about reports that Armitage told not only Novak about Mrs. Wilson, but also the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward, Sloan answered, “Woodward never printed it.”

“I’m not trying to say that what Armitage did was just fine,” Sloan continued. “It is obviously not OK. But it did not have the same level of malevolence as what Rove, Cheney, and Libby were trying to do, which was to out Valerie to punish Joseph.”

Sloan said that “there is still a lot that we don’t know” about the CIA leak matter, and that if it were shown that Armitage was part of a White House conspiracy, then he might be added to the lawsuit. But she said it doesn’t look like that is the case. “He didn’t even know that she was covert,” Sloan said of Armitage.

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington is best known for its filing of ethics complaints against members of Congress, the overwhelming majority of them Republicans. Sloan is a former aide to Democratic lawmakers John Conyers and Charles Schumer.

What we are fighting is Radical Islam

yes that certainly looks good on paper. but what's really happening is thousands upon thousands of arabs have and continue to be slaughtered while depleted uranium continues to be spread throughout thus ensuring that arabs will suffer for generations to come.
arabs. not radical islam.

David Corn,

You said above,

"In scanning some of the recent comments on the items below, I am struck by how many people feel free to state an opinion on the leak case without knowing the basic facts."

Isn't that exactly what you did in this instance, come up with every accusation and conspiracy theory without knowing one iota of the facts?

Typical liberal.

Cornposters,

I come in from work, and find that many of you post all day and all night. Do any of you have real jobs?

Then again, the more time you spend here, the less time you have to foil the actions of hard-working people, people trying to make a difference in this world, people doing things rather than just talking about them.

So, please, pull up a chair and stay awhile, while the Happy's and the LBH's and the rest of us are out doing things.

80
...arabs. not radical islam.
Posted by: spy on this! at August 31, 2006 07:17 PM
================================================
Radical Islam is a subset of Islam which includes Arabs, Persians, and Western converts...your definition is too narrow! Hezbo won't like you!

Islam-All Arabs/Persians/Converts-IslamoFascists, in descending order!

Rare Comment on 9/11--I'll say this, since 9/11 took a bit of bandwidth today. It really isn't an issue of whether our government is technically capable of carrying out the logistics of the attacks themselves. It is capable...just as any of us with some education can work out the technical aspects dealing with flight schedules, funding, etc...at the most, needing just one or two specialists to study which part of the buildings to target.

The issue, I believe both Alan & I have commented before, is the sheer impossibility of keeping something this BIG a secret! In light of Corn-Plamegate, it's pretty apparent that we are a nation of leakers and for the right book, will spill the beans! In 5 years, already, two movies have been made....I rest my case!

As for those that believe Mossad was behind 9/11, you are prime candidates for buying investment land on the now drastically On-Sale Pluto! Without the US, Israel will not exist....so, why would it play with such an idea? Absolutely Nuts!

happy learns spy! sumpin. aint it daggawn sumtip?

So, please, pull up a chair and stay awhile, while the Happy's and the LBH's and the rest of us are out doing things.

Posted by: factchecker at August 31, 2006 07:28 PM

You bet. Just let us know when you plan to be out doing things.

MP3, please don't post such long articles in entirety. Pick a few paragraphs and add a link. If people are interested they'll read it. thanks.

30 Drewp, good post.

Okay, lets call it the War against radical islam. The war on drugs and poverty have been a horrific failure. Especially the latter. The people who were targets of being "helped" actually became dependent on government largess (if you consider .28 cents of every dollar actually reached those on welfare) instead of finishing school, learning a trade and becoming self sufficient.

Re Islam/Arabs. Millions are dying from depleted uranium? First off, I do not wish any harm to Arabs who mean us no harm. Second, where did you get that figure from?

Radical Islam is a subset of Islam which includes..

i know what radical islam is. that doesn't change the fact that middle eastern people are being slaughtered and poisoned. do you deny that they are?

re: 9/11
The issue, I believe both Alan & I have commented before, is the sheer impossibility of keeping something this BIG a secret!

what makes you think it's a secret? 9/11 has been analyzed up one side and down the other for 5 years now on the internet. just because the mcmedia (who i and others believe are partners in complicity with elements of the pentagon and the NY crew) has a blackout on all matters 9/11 (with the exception of using it to promote the continuing war on arabs), doesn't mean that many many people haven't been digging under every rock. oh it is no secret. it is just unsaid.

Eeere we go. S.H.I.T.

"There's a recent study about human behavior and apparently, women are capable of making decisions about the character of men within a tenth of a second.
Decisions often made without any rational thought? Yep and that's why we're in Iraq."
--David Letterman

"CNN, to mark the fifth anniversary of 9/11, is going to be re-playing their original coverage of that day. Let's just hope that President Bush doesn't tune in and go, 'Oh my God, they've done it again!'."
--Bill Maher

"For years people have criticized the Bush administration for intelligence failures -- specifically, the president's failure to be intelligent."
--Stephen Colbert

"The new season of 'Survivor' is going to be dividing up the tribes by race. They said they got the idea from Karl Rove."
--Bill Maher

"The Republicans have a new talking point on Iraq. It's about time they got one. The new one is: 'If we don't fight them there, they'll follow us home.' There's a representative -- a Republican named Curt Weldon -- who said we either fight them over there or we fight them here in our supermarkets. Have you ever been to that Ralph's on Sunset at 3 in the morning? I don't think al Qaeda has the guts."
--Bill Maher

"How come Israel can fight a war in a month, but we can't? The Lebanese are returning home now to their devastated homes in Southern Lebanon. They say they had no idea of the scope of destruction. And the reason they don't have any idea? Because every time they turned on CNN, they were talking about JonBenet."
--Bill Maher

"A panel of scientists voted to kick Pluto out of the solar system. They tried to explain the science of this to President Bush, but then they got fed up and just told him it got destroyed by the Death Star."
--Bill Maher

"President Bush said the United States is still under the threat of attack and will continue to be right up until Election Day."
--Jay Leno

"I don't want to say President Bush's approval rating is dropping, but I understand there's a sign outside of Crawford, Texas, that now says, 'Home of Cindy Sheehan.'"
--Jay Leno

"Anyone been traveling? It's a nightmare. We still have those travel advisories. If you're traveling, you can't carry deoderant, shaving cream, hair gel, perfume,. Have you been to LAX? Everybody looks like Nick Nolte now."
--Jay Leno

"There's a hurricane watch for tropical storm Ernesto. Let me tell you something. These hurricanes are getting smart. They know a Hispanic hurricane has a better chance of getting into the country."
--Jay Leno

"This week is the one-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. It's amazing how time flies. It seems like just yesterday FEMA was ignoring the hurricane victims."
--Jay Leno

"This is finally a happy story in the Middle East. In the Gaza strip, Palestinian militants released those two Fox News journalists. They were released unharmed. ... The Palestinians said they just couldn't take any more of the pro-Bush stories."
--Jay Leno

"How many of you folks watched the Emmys telecast last night on NBC? Well, don't worry -- FEMA's on the way."
--David Letterman

"Leading astronomers have officially declared that Pluto is no longer a planet. ... They think it may have something to do with Pluto's drinking and making anti-semitic remarks."
--Jay Leno

"Do we have folks here who are fans of the solar system? You know Pluto? Adios, no longer a planet. They bounced Pluto. We have eight now -- used to have nine. Pluto is gone. I guess late last night packed up everything and moved out. ... Through a spokesman, it said it's now going to spend more time with its family."
--David Letterman

"Today is the one-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Not only that, it's the six-month anniversary of when President Bush found out about it."
--Conan O'Brien

"President Bush. You know where he is? He's in New Orleans right now to mark the first anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Now if we could just get FEMA down there."
--David Letterman

"Today, of course, the one-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans. FEMA officials said it seems like just yesterday when they first arrived in New Orleans. And then they realized, 'Oh, it was just yesterday.'."
--Jay Leno

"President Bush toured several neighborhoods (in New Orleans). It was still mostly empty. They had Dick Cheney coming along to shoot any looters."
--Jay Leno

"The entire case against John Mark Karr was completely bogus. It was based on a bunch of ridiculous claims he just made up without any basis and facts. The good news? Today, the White House offered him a job."
--Jay Leno

"I've got some good news. Over the weekend two Fox News journalists, who had been kidnapped in the Middle East, were released. Afterwards, the Fox News journalists said it was the worst experience since being trapped at the Christmas party with Geraldo."
--Conan O'Brien

"Astronomers think that the planet Earth will be sucked into a black hole, swallowed by a black hole. I believe the last time that happened, someone got impeached."
--David Letterman

Lord have Mercy. Somebody beat me to the punch on the Thursday nite Funnies. Mr. Corn sez,
"In scanning some of the recent comments on the items below, I am struck by how many people feel free to state an opinion on the leak case without knowing the basic facts."

Welcome to our world, dude. Between our links to the BLS, the Fed, the U.S. Census Bureau, FISA Court Reviews, DOJ documents, info from the GAO and quotes from tons of other governmental entities, we have CornCOB ignoramuses like Factless quoting the opinion of some suckass LitProf from a 2-yr. college on the Gorelick memo. We have LBH telling us about Reid investigations that don't exist, Ollie North and Osama links that don't exist, Bogus stories about Gore, and some imaginary latino friend that he calls "Jesus." And Happy still doesn't have a clue what the Labor Force Participation rate is or what it means to the difficulties that his party faces at the polls. They haven't a clue. But, hey, who needs facts when you have FoxNews and NewsMax? I guess it's our job to disabuse these pinheads of their fairytales and fantasies.

And before I forget, give to Joe. Give till I die laughing. Chafee is now 17 pts behind his Republican Primary opponent. Liddy Dole and her Republican money machine have dropped over half a million dollars on the rotting carcass that has become the Chafee campaign. Macaca Allen is sinking, Corker has legal troubles layered upon legal troubles, Burns is doing everything he can to sink his own campaign, Talent seems to be lacking in MO, DeWine is behind and the GOP is throwing its weight behind Joe? Smart move Rove. Genius, I say.

I hope you all read Paul's link @ 120 in the previous thread (and Capt's instructions on how to link -- I'm looking at you CornCOB blogging dilettantes).

Quote of the Day, an oldie but goodie:
"There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus, What you've got is everything—and I mean everything—being run by the political arm. It's the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis."
--John DiIulio former head of the Bush Faith-Based Initiatives office