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August 16, 2006Better Saddam Than Dead?From my "Loyal Opposition" column at TomPaine.com.... Better dead than Red. During the Cold War, that was the rallying cry of the diehard anti-communists, many of whom never had to face the choice. During those years, hundreds of millions of people--in the Soviet Union, in China and elsewhere--did not adhere to such an extreme slogan. They may not have fancied living in lands without freedoms, but they believed it was preferable to reside under repression than to die trying to topple tyranny. There have always been brave souls--the rebels of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, the members of Solidarity in Poland, the dissidents of the Soviet Union, the champions of Tiananmen Square--willing to sacrifice their own existence to achieve freedom for their fellow citizens. But let's face it; most of us would rather be red--or any other color--than dead. And that's hardly an irrational choice, for even in a dictatorship, one is often free to enjoy family and friends and some of the mundane pleasures of life. Which brings us to Iraq. The chaos and mayhem there has reached (or surpassed) a point when it may not be unsound to say that Iraqis were better off under Saddam Hussein. Think of it this way: in the years since George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq, tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed. The most recent statistics are staggering. In May and June, according to the United Nations, six thousand Iraqis were slain. Recently, the health ministry noted that 1,850 Baghdad residents were killed in July alone and 3,438 civilians were killed throughout the country. That is, in a three-month period, about 10,000 Iraqis have lost their lives in the troubles the invasion—and the poorly planned occupation—gave birth to. Yet despite these harrowing numbers, President Bush, according to The New York Times, is befuddled by the lack of public support among Iraqis for the American mission in their country. As we all are aware, pre-invasion Iraq was a nasty place in terms of human rights and political freedoms. But in the years prior to the invasion, there was not this level of slaughter. Amnesty International's 2002 report notes that "scores of people, including possible prisoners of conscience and armed forces officers suspected of planning to overthrow the government, were executed." Scores of suspected government opponents were arrested, and their fates and whereabouts were unknown. Scores of people killed--that's what now happens on a daily, rather than annual, basis. Of course, there were brutal and horrific acts of mass murder during Saddam Hussein's reign. The Anfal campaign of the late 1980s--which included chemical weapons attacks on Kurdish villages--led to the deaths of tens of thousands and the forced displacement of hundreds of thousands. Saddam's repression of the Shiite rebellion of 199--which came at the end of the first Persian Gulf war after President George H.W. Bush called on Iraqis to overthrow the dictator and then did nothing to support the uprising--resulted in about 30,000 Shiite deaths. Since the invasion, the discovery of mass graves has reminded the world of these atrocities. But the United States took no action at the time of these nightmares to stop the killings. And in the years since the Gulf War, a weakened Saddam had not repeated such genocidal acts. That is hardly praise. But let's be blunt: Far many more Iraqis have died due to the war Bush started than were killed by Saddam in the years prior to the invasion. The total number of civilian Iraqi deaths may well be more than 100,000. (The equivalent loss for the United States would be more than 1 million people.) This is much more than the recent death counts in Lebanon and Israel--which spark justifiable outrage on each side. I imagine that hardheaded advocates of the war will say that such is the price of liberty, that eggs must be broken. Yet here's the rub: The Iraqi people did not decide that such a cost was worth bearing. They had it imposed upon them. In the examples of anti-communist rebellions cited above, freedom fighters in those countries were willing to take the risk and put their own lives at stake. They could determine if they wished to be dead rather than red. In Iraq, there was no such indigenous calculation. People in another country decided they knew what was best for Iraqis. And they then botched the job. The Saddam regime is gone; that's true. But given what has taken its place, it would not be an irrational choice for many Iraqis to prefer the Iraq of 2002 rather than the Iraq of 2006. Think about it. Most Iraqis before the invasion--like most citizens in most repressive states--managed to get by. They may not have had freedoms, but they had their friends and relatives. They still fell in love, had sex, had families, played with their kids, followed sports. The lucky ones--like the lucky ones in all countries--had meaningful work. Now millions of Iraqis have lost a loved one. And in return, they have a country that is unstable and on the brink of collapse, and their daily lives are marked by crime and deep uncertainty involving life and death. It's a different sort of terror than what George W. Bush speaks of. Is it better to be free in an environment of violent chaos than safe in circumstances without freedom? I'm not arrogant enough to say that I know the answer. I might well choose a life without political freedoms rather than lose my wife or children. Live free or die, they say in New Hampshire. But how many people really believe that? In any event, that choice should be left to those who are actually willing to die to make the point. The 100,000 or so dead Iraqis cannot tell us what they would prefer. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, and the other supporters of this war are responsible for the consequences of their actions--or they ought to be. One result is that tens of thousands of Iraqis are now dead who would not have been had the invasion not happened. Given that Bush hails the preciousness of each life when the subject is embryonic stem-cell research, I wonder why the Iraq war is not judged--and acknowledged--an abysmal failure by its creators. Do they not believe Iraqi lives are as valuable as frozen embryos? Before the war, Bush and his aides said the primary rationale for the war was neutralizing a direct WMD threat to the United States. That turned out to be bogus. They also claimed that bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq would have a positive effect on the entire Middle East. Strike that, too. Additionally, they claimed the war would save the Iraqi people. Instead, it has created a hell for many Iraqis. The carnage that has come about due to Bush's invasion is unforgivable. In defending the war, Bush often points to the fact that a brutal dictator has been removed from power. But so profound is Bush's failure in Iraq that there is increasing merit to the argument that this single positive achievement was not worth the cost. Let's ask all the dead Iraqis what they think. Posted by David Corn at August 16, 2006 01:13 PM | ||
Comments
Mr. David Corn,
GREAT POST!
One of the better ones! To the point and as honest and straight-forward as any I have read in some time.
Thanks for all of your work
Kirk
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 01:17 PM
Mr. Corn, I gave my comments on the previous blog around #226 to around 240 or so. Very powerful blog!!!
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 01:32 PM
This excerpt is from the Jerusalem Post:
Aug. 16, 2006 2:09 | Updated Aug. 16, 2006 17:22
Hizbullah: Disarmament not on agenda
By GIL HOFFMAN AND JPOST.COM STAFF
The issue of disarmament is not on the agenda, senior Hizbullah official Hassan Fadlallah said on Wednesday, jeopardizing the fragile cease-fire in the region. The UN cease-fire resolution clearly states that the area south of the Litani river must be demilitarized.
According to Fadlallah, who spoke with al-Jazeera, Hizbullah will not evacuate its operatives from southern Lebanon since they are the ones who populate the region. "Any such withdrawal means the evacuation of southern Lebanon," he said.
**********************************************************************
Well, well, well. No truer words have been spoken. So much for "civilian" casualties in Southern Lebanon!
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 01:42 PM
Mr. Corn says, "Let's ask all the dead Iraqis what they think."
Well, which ones does he want to ask? How about the hundreds of thousands murdered by Saddam? I am quite sure that these are greater in number than all the non-combatant Iraqis killed in the war. As for the internecine killing since, that's their problem.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 01:46 PM
Indeed. Well said, David.
Posted by: ChiGirl at August 16, 2006 01:46 PM
Rosy Assessments on Iraq 'Not Related to Reality,' Some Say
TIKRIT, Iraq - As security conditions continue to deteriorate in Iraq, many Iraqi politicians are challenging the optimistic forecasts of governments in Baghdad and Washington, with some worrying that the rosy views are preventing the creation of effective strategies against the escalating violence.
Their worst fear, one that some American soldiers share, is that top officials don't really understand what's happening. Those concerns seem to be supported by statistics that show Iraq's violence has increased steadily during the past three years.
"The American policy has failed both in terms of politics and security, but the big problem is that they will not confess or admit that," said Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish member of parliament. "They are telling the American public that the situation in Iraq will be improved, they want to encourage positive public opinion (in the U.S.), but the Iraqi citizens are seeing something different. They know the real situation."
Othman charges that top American officials spend most of their time in the heavily guarded Green Zone in Baghdad and at large military bases across the country, and don't know what's happening in the neighborhoods and provinces beyond.
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
Our troops did their job and won the war. They are not to blame for the lack of planning or the ineptitude of this WH.
The troops are the heroes and Bush is the zero.
Funny - that is what all of us have been saying for YEARS. The trolls - just the opposite. Will the troll ever admit the simple fact that they have been completely WRONG? No, no risk of that. Such honesty is reserved for people that are honorable and possess a little self-respect. (ergo no trolls)
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 01:48 PM
Mr Corn writes:
But let's face it; most of us would rather be red--or any other color--than dead.
Obviously, Mr Corn assumes that everyone, or most, are cowards. I think Erlings uncle would disagree with this quote Mr Corn. It's also an insult to all who serve in our armed forces that have died for their country or a fellow soldier. Cowards would not take a bullet for a fellow soldier. They instead become liberal political commentators.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 01:48 PM
Talk about BOGUS. What is bogus is the assertion that somehow the typical Iraqi citizen would be better off today had we not removed Saddam! What a pernicious, monstrous lie this is.
NEWSFLASH 1945: Political pundits today noted that German citizens would be much better off today had the U.S. and it's allies not invaded!!! Think of all the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dead German civilians! Why, President Roosevelt should be impeached for this!!!
You morons.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 01:50 PM
Israel's Verdict: We Lost the War
Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, was obliged to admit "shortcomings" in the 34-day-old conflict in Lebanon yesterday as he launched what may prove a protracted fight for his own political survival.
Mr Olmert's admission in a stormy Knesset session came in the face of devastating poll figures showing a majority of the Israeli public believes none or only a very small part of the goals of the war had been achieved.
Adding insult to injury, the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, crowed on television that his guerrillas had achieved a "strategic historic victory" over Israel.
The Prime Minister, who was repeatedly heckled by opposition MPs during his address, insisted the international commitments in Friday night's UN resolution would "change fundamentally" the balance of forces on the country's northern border.
But, facing his first major political crisis since winning the election five months ago, he acknowledged "the overall responsibility for this operation lies with me, the Prime Minister. I am not asking to share this with anyone." A number of Knesset members including the Israeli Arab Ahmed Tibi, a furious opponent of the war, were ejected from the chamber.
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
Wowser, a PM admits the mistakes are HIS responsibility?
We have Wuss blaming the Iraqis for not being more supportive of his insanity? Quite a contrast.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 01:52 PM
Let's ask all the dead Iraqis what they think.
Posted by David Corn at August 16, 2006 01:13 PM
How long would it take to interview 149,000 dead Iraqi civilians?
Posted by: O'Reilly at August 16, 2006 01:55 PM
Was Iraq Better Off Under Saddam?
Some Young Iraqis Tell Harry Smith Many Of Their Friends Think So
CBS) Many Iraqis think conditions have gotten so bad in their country, they'd like to see Saddam Hussein back in power, according to some of the seven young Iraqi men who had a candid discussion with The Early Show co-anchor Harry Smith.
All are college-educated and speak English.
"When the Americans started this whole war issue," said one, who will be referred to as person No. 1, "we started to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and we walked toward it. But when the war happened, that light was the American train coming the other way that ran us over."
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
The OPINION of a pathetic armchair general here in the states means very little. The OPINION of the Iraqi people - the horses mouth, no?
The only monstrous lie is from the troll (as usual)
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 01:57 PM
Uh, cowards as in our current leadership? Like republicans in congress? Let's see what exactly have you done mr. lbh towards defending your country in the military? Hmm, anything? So let's stop putting up cowards as liberals, mostly they are the neo cons none of them served or even wanted to the shrub got out of serving by deserting. So what does the fighting keyboarder have to say about that coward!!!!
Posted by: What the F**k at August 16, 2006 01:59 PM
Who's Better Off?
How much better off are the Iraqi people? Hundreds of thousands of former inhabitants of Fallujah are not better off with their city flattened and their homes destroyed. Hundreds of thousands are not better off living with foreign soldiers patrolling their street, curfews, and the loss of basic utilities. One hundred thousand dead Iraqis, as estimated by the Lancet medical journal, certainly are not better off. Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave.
Praise for the recent election in Iraq has silenced many critics of the war. Yet the election was held under martial law implemented by a foreign power, mirroring conditions we rightfully condemned as a farce when carried out in the old Soviet system and more recently in Lebanon. Why is it that what is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander?
Our government fails to recognize that legitimate elections are the consequence of freedom, and that an artificial election does not create freedom. In our own history we note that freedom was achieved first and elections followed Ð not the other way around.
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
Yep, that is Representative Ron Paul - Republican from Texas and a (dare I say) REAL conservative, not some neocon wannabe.
OUCH! That has to smart.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:00 PM
As I wrote on the previous post an excellent article.
Here is something from the headlines from Democracy Now.
Report: Bush Frustrated, Puzzled By Lack of Iraqi Support
The New York Times is reporting President Bush has privately expressed frustration about the progress of the war in Iraq and the lack of public support for the US occupation. Citing participants in Monday's gathering at the White House, the New York Times says "the president expressed frustration that Iraqis had not come to appreciate the sacrifices the United States had made in Iraq, and was puzzled as to how a recent anti-American rally in support of Hezbollah in Baghdad could draw such a large crowd."
------------------
Did not appreciate the sacrifices the US had made in Iraq....
I can't even believe that statement. Bush needs to walk among the people of Iraq. He needs to stumble about the rubble. He needs to be in the midst of the damage he caused. Remember when he said no casulties? God....
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 02:02 PM
ÔI hate to say it, but we were better off under SaddamÕ
[..]
Most Iraqis simply blame the hated Americans for their plight. In 2003 they were ambiguous, unsure whether they had been liberated or conquered. That ambiguity vanished long ago. Noor is less willing than most to blame the American scapegoat. "We were not ready for democracy," he said. "Under Saddam the Iraqis had no respect for the law; they were afraid of the law. When Saddam went they had never known what freedom meant. So they behaved like outlaws."
He is ashamed of the savagery Ñ the kidnappings, beheadings, car bombings. Like most Iraqis he blames Americans, Syrians and Iranians for stoking the violence and hates the foreign jihadi fighters. But Iraqis have failed, he believes, and like everyone else he fears what the future holds now.
Noor is still a friend of America, but no longer an enthusiastic one. Too many friends have been shot by US patrols or humiliated at checkpoints. "I thought the Americans had come to Iraq to help the Iraqi people," he said. "But we have learnt that they came here for their wants. We still need their help, though, if we are to build our country."
If anything, Abu Yasser is even more despondent. Many of his friends, drivers and translators who worked for foreign journalists, have been murdered. In Baghdad today anyone working for a foreigner risks death as a spy or traitor.
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
I do not think the Iraqis give a darn what anybody here thinks. They know who they were better off under. Who else has a right to even offer an OPINION?
Monstrous is a word to be understood before its improper use, eh?
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:05 PM
Thomas Jefferson
Dear Cornposters:
Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to George Hammond in 1792: "A nation as a society, forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society."
What kind of nation are we presently living in that glorifies hatred, murders, torture, war crimes, corruption, decadence, greed, and lies? How can our citizens be moral persons with the religious right dictating the moral norms of our society and influencing the development of our people?
Our present nation as a society is forming immoral persons to lead the way toward our self-destruction.
Sincerely,
Gerald
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:08 PM
Tim,
If you want to compare wars a more comparable war would be the invasion of Grenada. At least the Reagan administration chose a tiny island with little resistance to use as a propaganda tool.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 02:12 PM
"How long would it take to interview 149,000 dead Iraqi civilians?"
The hardest ones to interview are the babies, you know the ones that were not even old enough to talk OR run from the bombs.
The GOP "Culture of Corruption" is a division of the GOP "Culture of Death" that values a blastocyst as life while killing innocent civilians in Iraq just to try to prove Bush right when he screwed the pooch.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:12 PM
Great article, Mr. Corn, lucid, to the point, and powerful. I have often heard the bloodthirsty, uncaring members of American society tell me in response to my dislike of the Iraq War: "but we need the oil!" It is a bit more honest than the claim that this is about spreading "freedom". But it still has me disturbed. Who is asking to take someone's oil? Not I. I would rather us find alternative energy sources. Not only that, but what if in the course of taking their oil, someone decides to come over here and hurt us? I would be a potential target in a war I had no desire to see unfold. It is unfair to have me placed in harm's way when I would have preferred a different course of action - like, you know, just paying for the oil like most of us pay for the other products and services we enjoy (isn't that what "capitalism" is?). How free can I be if I have no choice in becoming a potential victim?
Posted by: goob at August 16, 2006 02:13 PM
Obviously, Mr Corn assumes that everyone, or most, are cowards. I think Erlings uncle would disagree with this quote Mr Corn. It's also an insult to all who serve in our armed forces that have died for their country or a fellow soldier. Cowards would not take a bullet for a fellow soldier. They instead become liberal political commentators.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 01:48 PM
LBH will now speak on behalf of how American war heros would feel about David's political argument. And when he done shoveling his shit on David's blog, wrap himself in the flag. Ego is funny thing. Ego and ignorance isn't.
LBH, you are not funny but it is funny you think you have a way with words. You are an anti-intellectual bully, a green head on a horses ass.
Posted by: All the Kings Men at August 16, 2006 02:16 PM
Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds
A major study by the UN and Iraqi officials found that life in Iraq has decayed significantly since foreign forces invaded, following a general trend seen in most sectors since the imposition of a global embargo in 1990.
Responses to a detailed survey conducted by a United Nations agency and the Iraqi government indicate that everyday conditions for Iraqis in the aftermath of the 2003 US-led invasion have deteriorated at an alarming rate, with huge numbers of people lacking adequate access to basic services and resources such as clean water, food, health care, electricity, jobs and sanitation.
"This survey shows a rather tragic situation of the quality of life in Iraq," Barham Salih, Iraq's minister of planning, said in statement, adding: "If you compare this to the situation in the 1980s, you will see a major deterioration."
The United Nations Development Program (UNDP) conducted the far ranging survey, titled "Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004," in cooperation with Iraq's Ministry of Planning.
Researchers determined that some 24,000 Iraqis died as a result of the US-led invasion in 2003 and the first year of occupation. Children below the age of 18 comprised 12 percent of those deaths, according to survey data.
The study also indicates that the invasion and its immediate aftermath forced more than 140,000 Iraqis to flee their homes.
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
"We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality.' And reality has a well known liberal bias."
~ Stephen Colbert, Speech to White House Correspondents' Dinner, April 30, 2006
That darned "reality" keep slapping the neocon-men in the face.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:18 PM
This will be my third time posting this story, but I fear that it bears repeating yet again. People like to think that the Iraqis that died have all deserved it, or that if they didn't, it was merely an accident, and not an act of cold-blooded murder.
Wanna Bet?
Several weeks ago, some friends and I were told a most sick and gruesome story about what goes on in Iraq. We were exiting a restaurant, and my friends sat down to have a smoke. A man walked up to them and asked for a cigarette and a light. "Don't just bring the habit," my friend scolded the man. At some point I mentioned a detail I remembered in All Quiet on the Western Front, about how the German snipers killed the black American soldiers by looking for their cigarette cherries. The man who bummed the cig enthusiastically regaled us with a daring tale of how he and his friends made a bet to see who could kill a man sitting on his patio, innocently smoking a cigarette in the night. They each took turns taking shots at his cherry, until one guy managed to get the mark and won the bet. At this point, my friends and I turned green with disgust and red with anger, and asked him why they would do such a thing, to which he responded: "Oh, its Iraq, man, this kind of shit goes on all the time, man!" Like he was proud of it, shrugging off the brutal murder with a flippant remark. He continued his story (with renewed gusto), the point of which was actually that they could not find the corpse in the morning; it had been dragged away, leaving a trail of blood. He took more interest and concern in the mess the corpse made and the fact that it disappeared than the awful fact that he was a willing participant in a bet to kill a person for no reason. Oh wait, there were a few bucks at stake.
One can still be a Bushbot and have some compassion, some empathy for the person in this situation. More than that, let's think about the consequences of this. The man was someone's son, someone's husbad, someone's father, someone's sibling, a community member who may be sorely missed by his family, friends, and neighbors. All the people that knew this person will know that he died for no reason. Will this incident endear them to the Americans and occupying forces? I don't think so.
This behavior is evil, it is sick, and it needs to stop, because it leads to more violence, more hatred, more fear. This does not fight "terror", this encourages "terror" - and was a merciless and real act of terror. If you support this war and this administration, you are supporting this terrorism. Seek help immediately.
Posted by: goob at August 16, 2006 02:18 PM
When the loons try to conflate WW2 with the current illegal invasion of Iraq it comes off as second rate, it has lasted as long as WW2 but with none of the massive successes of that conflict, and oh yeah, it isn't a declared war, just a brain fart of the shrub. So why hasn't he gone to baghdad and seen for himself what is going on? One word. COWARD!!! just to put a fine point on it. Nope, the american is another victim in this debacle. Unless we get our country back and start to take care of ourselves we are not going to see any difference. Soon folks the real cost of this war is going to come home to the good old us of a, and then all the hacks and bubba supporters of this crime orginazation are really going to be pissed that they were so stupid and could not see that it is all a lie. But hey, that is the good part, the bad part is that there are no reserves of anything in the US to fix anything here. We are broken and just don't know it yet. When that becomes apparent then the real shit will hit the fan. So get ready for your new lifestyle hope you enjoy it, it's been a long time coming. You won't believe what is in store for all of us.
Posted by: What the F**k at August 16, 2006 02:18 PM
"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others."
~ Nelson Mandela (1918 - )
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:20 PM
"Let's ask all the dead Iraqis what they think."
-corn
which ones does he want to ask? How about the hundreds of thousands murdered by Saddam? I am quite sure that these are greater in number than all the non-combatant Iraqis killed in the war
-tim
oh i don't think so tim. i am quite sure that the number of non-combatant iraqis killed in the war plus the number of babies who will be born with deformities as a result of the decision to throw DU around as if it were insecticide have exceeded your version of the score by at least 150%.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 02:27 PM
24) WTF
oh but he HAS gone to baghdad himself to see what's going on - remember the plastic turkey incident?
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 02:30 PM
We can thank Israel for one positive in the war on Lebanon. Yes, we can! NYTimes says that Hezbollah leads work to rebuild and gaining in stature. Yes, there will be more converts to Hezbollah. Just like Bush Israel got it right! Israel has also united the Muslims. All this unity is giving me the warm fuzzies.
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:30 PM
There is no easy walk to freedom anywhere, and many of us will have to pass through the valley of the shadow of death again and again before we reach the mountaintop of our desires.
Nelson Mandela
Posted by: MP5 at August 16, 2006 02:31 PM
NEWSFLASH Early post-WWII Germany:
A political pundit recently returned from Germany where he reports that his observations prove that the German people are WORSE OFF than before when they were under the dictatorship of Hitler!!!
Oh WOE and terrible troubles! Things are so bad! This was an illegal war and never should have been undertaken!
morons.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 02:35 PM
Sneaky at #26,
From the U.N. study cited by capt at #22:
"Researchers determined that some 24,000 Iraqis died as a result of the US-led invasion in 2003 and the first year of occupation. Children below the age of 18 comprised 12 percent of those deaths, according to survey data."
Saddam is credited with a LOT more than 24,000, my sneaky little friend.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 02:39 PM
War is outmoded. It creates more problems that it resolves problems. No sane person would choose war over peace.
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:39 PM
No one ever said that Bush and Olmert were sane persons.
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:41 PM
A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:
1. A makes claim X.
2. There is something objectionable about A.
3. Therefore claim X is false.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Posted by: goob at August 16, 2006 02:41 PM
Ya see, leftists and associated anti-war types conveniently develop amnesia when it comes to history. It's not that they are ignorant of it, rather they deliberately choose to IGNORE it!
This is why I use the WWII analogy to illustrate the absurdity of their arguments.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 02:42 PM
There is an Irish proverb: IT IS IN THE SHELTER OF EACH OTHER THAT PEOPLE LIVE.
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:43 PM
Let us give shelter to each of our brothers and sisters in God!
Posted by: Gerald at August 16, 2006 02:45 PM
the hundreds of thousands murdered by Saddam
yes, thanks for assuring us of this number. i'm sure your word as a gentleman is good enough. oh, don't forget to count all the incubator babies that saddam murdered before the gulf war as well!
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 02:50 PM
The ONLY intentional ignorance here is from anybody that still thinks BUSH NEVER LIED?
How about it Timmy, you gotten to reality yet?
Take your time, reality sucks, I know.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 02:51 PM
Lets hope that the Iraqi population have the ability to have more to choose from: mayhem of US occupation or tyrrany by Saddam. If the assessment of experts collates that those are the only two choices, then allah help us.
And how do the US populace overcome the shame of this blunder?
Posted by: th at August 16, 2006 02:57 PM
see, it doesn't really matter what the link @22 says about the # of iraqis killed - there is no way to accurately add up the total - some estimates of the total are certainly much higher than the link @22 would have us believe.
google search
i'm curious about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqis that you have assured us that saddam is responsible for.
are you quite sure that it is not hundreds of thousands and one?
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 03:09 PM
The #22 is from May of '05.
The numbers are not even viable for that date but surely the numbers are over a year old. The point to that post was the fact that over a year ago - when things were not as bad as they are now - the Iraqis felt they were better off under Saddam.
The troll should try to read for comprehension and understand the meaning behind the words not try to use a false and outdated iota of data to try to prop up another misrepresentation and erroneous assertion. (a monstrous lie?)
The trolls have a thing about never understanding FACTS and the tend to believe only their OPINION is right.
Tragic.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 03:15 PM
of course - @22 was used by tim to try and bolster the bushco is good because saddam is bad mindset. that doesn't hold any water as far as i'm concerned.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 03:25 PM
#40
1. Partition
2. A Sadam like strong man.
3. A full on Civil War that will reduce the Sunni population to a negligible level.
Iraq is a country created by the British for British ends.
Posted by: MP5 at August 16, 2006 03:33 PM
WOW! I got a rise from on high! Oh, goody goody!
My day (actually the entire week) is complete!
Mon capitan, a thirsty man salutes you!
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 03:34 PM
Sneaky pants at #41,
Actually, you are correct - there really is no way to know the true number. I guess it's all relative to one's point-of-view.
Posted by: Tim at August 16, 2006 03:37 PM
David, Thought-provoking! No time now!
Repost of 265 - previous thread
Sen. Lieberman's website is (partially) Up and accepting donations! As I said I would, I did so! Corn blog readers that believe taking principaled stands is the hallmark of good politicians (or anyone else for that matter) are encouraged to vist Joe's website!
This mesage from Sen. Lieberman:
Welcome to Joe2006.com! We'll be re-launching our full website soon to bring you the latest news and updates from the campaign.
In the meantime, I want to take a moment to thank my supporters and explain to you why I have decided to fight on until November.
I'm staying in this race because I want to keep working for the things that matter to you and help meet the critical challenges facing our state and country.
I've been a leader in the Senate on strengthening our national security, protecting and creating jobs, stopping global warming and finding cures to diseases like cancer and diabetes.
And I'm staying because I want to help end the war in Iraq as quickly and successfully as possible, in a way that brings stability to the Middle East and doesn't leave us even more vulnerable to terrorist attacks.
So much needs to be done, but so little is actually getting done in Washington because our politics have become so partisan and polarized.
I have always followed a different path. My 30 years of experience has been about bringing people together and solving problems.
I am and will always be a proud, progressive, strong-on-defense Democrat. But I do not and will not hesitate to work across party lines when it will get things done for my constituents.
That is what my campaign will be all about building a new politics of unity and purpose and delivering results for the people of Connecticut.
I hope you will join me in this cause, no matter your political persuasion, to secure a brighter future for our state and our country.
Joe Lieberman
Posted by: Happy puts $ where it Counts at August 16, 2006 03:41 PM
Just in case you accidentally missed it:
The ONLY intentional ignorance here is from anybody that still thinks BUSH NEVER LIED?
How about it Timmy, you gotten to reality yet?
Take your time, reality sucks, I know.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 03:41 PM
Tim,
If you want to compare wars a more comparable war would be the invasion of Grenada. At least the Reagan administration chose a tiny island with little resistance to use as a propaganda tool.
Jeanne
Or, you could compare Clinton's defeat by a tiny band of thugs in Mogadishu. He wanted to use it as a propaganda tool until the dead Americans were being dragged on CNN. This is where the Democrats first learned to cut and run!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 03:42 PM
"There is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the September 11 attacks. Indeed Saddam's goal have little in connon with the terrorists who threaten us, and there is little incentive for him to make common cause with them. He is unlikely to risk his investment in weapons of mass destructions, much less his country, by handing such weaspons to terrorists who would use them for their own purposes and leave Baghdad as the return address."
Brent Scowcroft, chairman
Foreign Intelligence
Advisory Board
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 03:45 PM
Just in case you accidentally missed it:
The ONLY intentional ignorance here is from anybody that still thinks BUSH NEVER LIED?
How about it Timmy, you gotten to reality yet?
Take your time, reality sucks, I know.
Silly Little Rabbit Capt
Gee Capt, has Bush been convicted of lying to a grand jury or dis-barred for lying? Has been sued in a civil trial and lost for lying? We both know who I'm talking about here. The only current politician being sued for lying is your buddy Murtha! There you go silly little rabbit!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 03:49 PM
And lets not forget the US Vets who surely have been forgotten by this sick administration.
The Department of Veterans Affairs reports that in Missouri there are presently 13,549 homeless veterans for which the VA is only able to provide 96 beds. In Illinois the VA states there are 19,943 homeless veterans for which the VA supplies 158 beds.
http://www.newlifeevangelisticcenter.org/homeless_veterans_program.htm
This is not a plug for a program in Missouri, look around your own area and do what needs to be done!
Posted by: KR at August 16, 2006 03:49 PM
VIDEO: Bush Caught In Lie About Snow Resignation
Watch it:
On May 25th, President Bush said that Treasury Secretary John Snow had not given him any indication that he was leaving soon:
PRESIDENT BUSH: Secretary of Treasury Snow?
Q Has he given you any indication he intends to leave his job any time soon?
PRESIDENT BUSH: No, he has not talked to me about resignation. I think he's doing a fine job.
In fact, not only had Snow indicated he was leaving, President Bush had already settled on his replacement. Today, Tony Snow said that Hank Paulson was offered the job on May 20 and accepted a day later:
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
Bush is so pathological that he cannot keep himself from lying. We know Bush is not a man of honor or honorable intent. The facts speak louder than his lies.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 03:55 PM
If we wanna listen to Mr. Scowcroft, mebee we should be reminded of what he and King Bush I had to say about the dangers of invading Iraq...
Wasn't there something about that in some book they co-authored?
-T
Posted by: Hajji at August 16, 2006 04:05 PM
And, oh...WELL SAID David! Such has been in my thoughts for so long as I can remember.
-
T
Posted by: Hajji at August 16, 2006 04:06 PM
White House Admits Bush Lied in 2002 State of The Union Over Al Qaeda Obtaining U.S. Nuke Plant Plans
President Bush claimed in his 2002 State of the Union address that the U.S. discovered in Afghanistan detailed plans of U.S. nuclear plants. The Bush administration was forced to admit this week that the claim was not based on factual evidence after the Nuclear Regulatory Commission said there was no evidence any such plans were found in Afghanistan. [Includes transcript]
More HERE
*****end of clip*****
The OGDIT (Other Guy Did It Too) defense starts with the tacit admission to the original proposition. For others to have done it too means you admit Bush did lie and is a liar. You have not yet developed the maturity to be honest with yourself.
It is okay, you can't lose something you never possessed - credibility. So a no loss admission in the larger scheme of things, eh?
"One might equate growing up with a mistrust of words. A mature person trusts his eyes more than his ears. Irrationality often manifests itself in upholding the word against the evidence of the eyes. Children, savages and true believers remember far less what they have seen than what they have heard." ~ Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)
capt
Posted by: capt at August 16, 2006 04:09 PM
All the kings men, I mean "All the Panty Queens men"
A green head on a horses ass?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thats the best line you have?
No wonder you keep hiding behind new handles!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David said that he would prefer being a coward by being Red than dead! You idiots have a comprehension problem ~~~~
comápreáhenásion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kmpr-hnshn)
n.
The act or fact of grasping the meaning, nature, or importance of; understanding.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:11 PM
Or, you could compare Clinton's defeat by a tiny band of thugs in Mogadishu. He wanted to use it as a propaganda tool until the dead Americans were being dragged on CNN. This is where the Democrats first learned to cut and run!
Now, that's not fair LBH. Maybe he learned from Reagan in Lebanon that sometimes it's better to get out, than sacrifice more 'n more 'assets', be they lives or funds. Did RR cut and run?
Posted by: Alan at August 16, 2006 04:11 PM
At least Davids not afraid of admitting he's a coward unlike you cowards!!!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:12 PM
LBH,
Where is Mr. Infraction? I'm sure David would like to know what my new name is. Maybe Mr. Infranction has a name for Mr. Corn too.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 04:15 PM
46) I guess it's all relative to one's point-of-view.
-tim
right - the "bush is good because saddam was bad" view.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 04:16 PM
Now, that's not fair LBH. Maybe he learned from Reagan in Lebanon that sometimes it's better to get out, than sacrifice more 'n more 'assets', be they lives or funds. Did RR cut and run?
Alan
The difference is Alan that Clinton cut and ran 'during the mission' which ended in the unnecessary deaths of our troops! It's called being a chickenshit of a leader!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:16 PM
The difference is Alan that Clinton cut and ran 'during the mission'...
I don't understand. Our Marines weren't on a mission in Lebanon? Explain the diff please.
Posted by: Alan at August 16, 2006 04:19 PM
GONZO'S GOON SQUAD, COMING TO A NEIGHBORHOOD NEAR YOU!!!!
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, in Pittsburgh to address the World Affairs Council, recalled memories of Sep. 11 while referring ominously to a stateless enemy hidden in American towns.
"The most dramatic change," said Gonzales, "is the nature of the enemy our country today faces -- a stateless enemy sometimes hidden and nurtured here in our neighborhoods, taking advantage of the very laws they mock with their killing and destruction, as a shield from detection and prosecution."
Gonzales, further emphasizing the perceived domestic danger, stated, "The threat of homegrown terrorist cells may be as dangerous as groups like al Qaeda, if not more so.
"It is therefore essential that we continue to develop the tools we need to investigate their actions and intentions with the help of our partners, and prosecute those who travel down the road of radicalization."
Link
I feel safer already, do'nt you?
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 04:26 PM
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
Gilbert K. Chesterton
Posted by: MP5 at August 16, 2006 04:31 PM
JUNKIES EVERYWHERE ARE REJOICING!!!
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Opium cultivation in Afghanistan has hit record levels - up by more than 40 percent from 2005 - despite hundreds of millions in counternarcotics money, Western officials told The Associated Press.
The increase could have serious repercussions for an already grave security situation, with drug lords joining the Taliban-led fight against Afghan and international forces.
Link
I guess they were in such a hurry to find OBL they plum forgot about the poppies, or did they?
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 04:31 PM
It's called being a chickenshit of a leader!
like bush sr cutting and running from iraq?
also, who was on a mission and was sneak attacked by their own allies who were then protected with a cover-up?
ussliberty.org
but more to the point; why do these so-called allies and the cover-uppers continue to be supported?
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 04:32 PM
Class is not dismissed
I don't understand. Our Marines weren't on a mission in Lebanon? Explain the diff please.
Clinton sent our boys in harms way and then left them there to die!!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:39 PM
like bush sr cutting and running from iraq?
Yes, GB1 should have finished the job that he started.
At least he didn't leave our boys to die like Clinton.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:41 PM
right - the "bush is good because saddam was bad" view.
Correct even you James ha would be good compared to your buddy Saddam!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:45 PM
LBH,
Where is Mr. Infraction? I'm sure David would like to know what my new name is. Maybe Mr. Infranction has a name for Mr. Corn too.
Jeanne
Grow up! What ever happened to sticks and stones may brake my bones but words will never hurt me?
Even that ones beneath me Jeanne. I'm not the one hiding behind different handles with a phony email address like your buddies Panty and James ha and occasionally O'Reilly. Infraction has more characteristics of Corky than anyone else thats ever been here. Your barking up the wrong tree, but whatever!!!!!!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 04:50 PM
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different Ñ and perhaps barren Ñ outcome.
-GHW Bush/B Scowcroft
Decidedly different,
Criminally barren...
Posted by: Hajji at August 16, 2006 04:51 PM
It's called being a chickenshit of a leader!
like the court cutting and running when the fbi was caught red-handed as the true perpetrators of wtc bombing '93?
google search - wtc bombing 1993 fbi
is that the same fbi who has no hard evidence connecting bin laden with 9/11?
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 04:53 PM
bush is good because saddam was bad
bushco are saddam's patrons - they are just like saddam only more powerful and sneakier.
removing their little protege because he is no longer useful and it is expedient to do so hardly qualifies bushco as good.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:01 PM
Possible key human evolution genes identified
They could be the missing links of human genetic evolution -- areas of human DNA that changed dramatically after the evolutionary division from chimpanzees, though they had remained almost unchanged for millennia before.
Scientists from the United States, Belgium and France identified 49 "human accelerated regions" (HARs) showing a lot of genetic activity.
In the most active, identified as HAR1, they found 18 out of the 118 nucleotides had changed since evolutionary separation from chimps some 6 million years ago, while only two had changed in the 310 million years separating the evolutionary lines of chimps and chickens.
"Right now we have very suggestive evidence that it might be involved at a critical step in brain development, but we still need to prove that it really makes a difference," team leader David Haussler from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the University of California, Santa Cruz told Reuters.
------------------
But is it real? And will it hurt capitalism? Science does you know.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:04 PM
Here's a couple of questions:
Is one truly "free" in an environment of violent chaos?
Are you truly "safe" in circumstances without freedom?
Anyway, David, although I understand your point here, I have to say that I'm not one of those people who are willing to give up my civil liberties so the government can "protect" me from "chaos" any more than I'm willing to give them up so I can be "protected" from "the terrorists."
Posted by: Don at August 16, 2006 05:07 PM
Excellent news here.
Afghan opium cultivation hits a record
Opium cultivation in Afghanistan has hit record levels - up by more than 40 percent from 2005 - despite hundreds of millions in counternarcotics money, Western officials told The Associated Press.
The increase could have serious repercussions for an already grave security situation, with drug lords joining the Taliban-led fight against Afghan and international forces.
A Western anti-narcotics official in Kabul said about 370,650 acres of opium poppy was cultivated this season - up from 257,000 acres in 2005 - citing their preliminary crop projections. The previous record was 323,700 acres in 2004, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime.
"It is a significant increase from last year ... unfortunately, it is a record year," said a senior U.S. government official based in Kabul, who like the other Western officials would speak only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive topic.
--------------
Real progress.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:08 PM
Is it better to be free in an environment of violent chaos than safe in circumstances without freedom?
[This was the quote that I wanted to refer to in post #76.]
Posted by: Don at August 16, 2006 05:09 PM
Tim in #35:
This is why I use the WWII analogy to illustrate the absurdity of their arguments.
It's ironic then that it actually illustrates the absurdity of your own arguments!
Posted by: Don at August 16, 2006 05:11 PM
areas of human DNA that changed dramatically after the evolutionary division from chimpanzees
the next evolutionary division in human genetics could very well be a result of depleted uranium.
on behalf of humanity i would like to thank the war machine and their cronies, and give them a round of applause! (golf clap)
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:13 PM
Attorney General: Terrorists are in our neighborhoods
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, in Pittsburgh to address the World Affairs Council, recalled memories of Sep. 11 while referring ominously to a stateless enemy hidden in American towns.
"The most dramatic change," said Gonzales, "is the nature of the enemy our country today faces -- a stateless enemy sometimes hidden and nurtured here in our neighborhoods, taking advantage of the very laws they mock with their killing and destruction, as a shield from detection and prosecution."
Gonzales, further emphasizing the perceived domestic danger, stated, "The threat of homegrown terrorist cells may be as dangerous as groups like al Qaeda, if not more so.
"It is therefore essential that we continue to develop the tools we need to investigate their actions and intentions with the help of our partners, and prosecute those who travel down the road of radicalization."
------------------
I never noticed the neocons being afraid of the anti choice terrorists. They definately are in the neighborhood harrassing anyone who they feel is 'the enemy'.
This just reminds me of the old red scare tactics. Turn in your neighbor, your brother, you friend. And it never amounts to anything other than the civil rights of others being stripped from them.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:15 PM
Gee wiz Jeanne ya got the jinx going!
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 05:23 PM
#64 & #66 Jeanne, actually both stories are worth repeating, over and over and over.
WAKE UP AMERICA, YOUR COUNTRY IS BEING HIJACKED BY NEO-CONVICTS!!!!
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 05:26 PM
Opium cultivation in Afghanistan has hit record levels - up by more than 40 percent from 2005 - despite hundreds of millions in counternarcotics money, Western officials told The Associated Press.
wow - what does that mean? since bushco's removal of their other proteges the taliban, the opium production has risen to a record level. so, looking back to bush sr's involvement with cia in smuggling illegal drugs and pardoning their cronies, we can safely assume that bushco is now raking it in hand over fist with profits both from the smuggling of illegal drugs and the tax dollars generated by the war on drugs.
that's decidering at it's best!
the only thing left is for bush jr. to pardon one of his cronies - hmmm. what would they call it?
the afghan/contra affair!
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:30 PM
"We Don't Do Body Counts"
When U.S. General Tommy Franks uttered those words in 2003, he was conveying the new sentiments of the American military and its civilian leadership, that counting the dead of "the enemy" was not necessary or useful. Franks, who may be remembered as the only general in the annals of American history to lose two wars, was simply repeating what his political handlers told him to say, as all active duty generals do. In this case, it was an attempt to deflect the moral consequences of a "war of choice," a lesson Frank's generation learned from Vietnam. But the "no body counts" policy reverberates around the Arab and Muslim world, to America's detriment.
The policy is an insult and a mistake for two reasons. First, it lends the impression -- or is it a fact? -- that the United States does not care about civilian casualties. In the autumn of 2005, in a fairly typical sequence, the military announced that a sweep of Anbar province in Iraq had resulted in the death of 120 "terrorists." No civilian casualties were reported by the U.S. government, or by the American press. Al Jazeera, the Arabic news organization, had firsthand accounts of dozens of casualties. And it is inconceivable that major military operations of that kind would not result in casualties of the innocent. This is an embittering legacy of the war: not merely the fact of large numbers of war dead, but the neglect of even acknowledging that this could be occurring or is important enough to investigate.
John Tirman
Posted by: Erling Krange at August 16, 2006 05:33 PM
#83
Obviously, that's an important story.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:36 PM
81) The threat of homegrown terrorist cells may be as dangerous as groups like al Qaeda, if not more so.
- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
translation:
don't be surprised when another terror attack is blamed on muslims.
----
hey police! there's a terrorist hiding in my porn actress neighbor's pants! oh. that's just her gardener.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:38 PM
#84
I was thinking the same thing. Drugs are as profitable as oil.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:38 PM
That is indeed the rub, David. The Iraqi's weren't given a choice about whether they lived or died.
The neocons and other belligerents decided they knew what was best for the Iraqi people.
So they started killing them (unintentionally, they claim, but then why did they use cluster bombs, incendiary bombs, in violation of the Geneva Convention?) and set the stage for a potentially endless civil war.
Now Iraq is a flaming hellhole (And the American brownshirts who cheered for the war now say, Who'd a thunk it?).
The issue of choice is why I have little sympathy for the American troops now stuck in Iraq. They had a choice. Sure, they were lied to and misguided, but ultimately they each chose to pick up a weapon and participate in the invasion of a sovereign country, a country they knew virtually nothing about.
The Iraqis and their children had no such choice. They were forced to suffer the consequences of the decision made by each of these American soldiers.
Maybe it would have been more equitable if the American troops had been required to bring their own children, nephews, nieces with them to the war. Maybe then we wouldn't have had a war.
No soldiers, no wars.
Posted by: Drewp at August 16, 2006 05:47 PM
Zogby: Bush Job Approval - 34%
Rating down despite foiled terror plot and Lebanon cease fire; Democrats hold generic Congressional lead
President Bush's job approval rating dipped two points in the last three weeks, despite the foiling of an airline terror plot and the adoption of a cease fire deal between Israel and Hezbollah forces in Lebanon, a new Zogby International telephone poll shows.
The survey was conducted Aug. 11б5, 2006, included 1,018 respondents, and carries a margin of error of +/- 3.1 percentage points.
The numbers continue to reflect erosion in the President's political base Ð just 62% of Republicans give him positive marks for his job performance, while 38% give him negative marks. Even among weekly WalMart shoppers Ð a demographic group identified by Pollster John Zogby as a critical support group for Bush Ð just 45% now give him positive job marks, though his numbers among those shoppers have improved 10 points since early June.
More than three out of four -76%- of weekly WalMart shoppers voted for Bush over Democrat John Kerry in the 2004 presidential election, earlier Zogby polling showed.
Among both conservatives and those who consider themselves very conservative, 59% give him positive marks, while 41% in each group gave him a negative job rating.
One third of respondents - 34% - said that, overall, the nation is headed in the right direction, while 59% said they think things are off on the wrong track.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:48 PM
like bush sr cutting and running from iraq?
At least he didn't leave our boys to die like Clinton.
clinton is another bush protege. so was jeff gannon but in a different way.
you won't see anyone on this blog pretending that clinton was some kind of hero
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:50 PM
Man arrested in death of JonBenet Ramsey
A man suspected in the slaying of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey nearly a decade ago was arrested Wednesday in Thailand, the district attorney said.
District Attorney Mary Lacey said the arrest followed several months of work. She disclosed no details about the suspect before a news conference scheduled for Thursday.
Federal officials familiar with the case, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the man was already being held in Bangkok on unrelated sex charges. CBS reported that he is 41-year-old second-grade teacher and will be brought back to the United States this weekend.
Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood said in Atlanta that he has been told that the suspect once lived in Conyers, Ga., outside of Atlanta. He would not comment on whether the Ramseys knew him, and he said he knew nothing else about the man.
Lin said the Ramseys learned about the suspect a least a month before JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey, died on June 24 after a long battle with ovarian cancer.
-------------
What a sad case.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 05:53 PM
71) LBH
Grow up! What ever happened to sticks and stones may brake my bones but words will never hurt me?
hey lbh, why don't you call your ma the kinds of things that INFRACTION! called the ladies on this blog and see if she says sticks and stones or if she slaps your mouth.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:53 PM
wow jonbenet ramsey. i was sure that her murder was the work of american al qaedas.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 05:56 PM
Probably washes it out with soap...
Posted by: David B. Benson at August 16, 2006 05:58 PM
Ohio Voting Problems Deemed Severe
Problems with elections in Ohio's most populous county are so severe that it's unlikely they can be completely fixed by November, or even by the 2008 presidential election, a report commissioned by Cuyahoga County and released Tuesday says.
A nonprofit group hired to review the county's first election with new electronic voting machines found several problems with the May 2 primary, the results of which were delayed six days because roughly 18,000 absentee ballots had to be hand counted.
The absentee ballots had been improperly formatted for new optical scan voting machines. Poll workers also had problems operating the machines, some poll workers didn't show up, vote memory cards disappeared and one precinct opened hours late. Researchers also found that the four sources used to keep track of vote totals on machines did not always add up.
"The election system in its entirety exhibits shortcomings with extremely serious consequences, especially in the event of a close election," wrote Steven Hertzberg, director of the study by the San Francisco-based Election Science Institute.
--------------
Is this democracy? I keep hearing about how I'm supposed to support the troops. I support them by fighting for democracy here at home. Our voting rights are being taken away. Make a stink in every state. Make the attorney general and the govenor in every state know you are freaking mad about the state of voting in this country.
You know what? Do it for the troops. If you don't the neocons will screw with the troops ballots too.
I'm tired of people in this country being screwed.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 16, 2006 06:03 PM
#89
Honesty on the Corn Blog. I think a lot more people here would feel better about themselves if they could express themselves as Drewp did. The "I hate the war but love the troops" shit is getting very old.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 06:04 PM
It is true what David has said. Yes Iraq was miserable, Saddam was a tyrant, and I think everyone in the world was happy for him to go, as we would like dictators and sadists around the world to also disappear. However, the change agent becomes responsible and has to think things through and execute well. Bush tried to hit a home run, get more oil, a strong presence in middle east, a new modern democracy next to the failing Saudis. If it had worked, it would have been a new Marshall Plan with all the benefits to the world for the next 50 years. However, we are now in this for half a trillion dollars, no democracy, we don't know what we are doing other than staying the course. At a point, you have to recognize failure. One hopes that inside the Administration they see a failure and are only doing the public relations thing of saying everything is great. However, they have not shown themselves to be thinkers or effective. Now what do you do. If we leave Iraq, will it be even worse off. We don't need another holocaust. Why don't we stand off, and zap the people when they become more public, remove U.S. as the dominant force, but act in a "deus ex machina" role.
Posted by: john at August 16, 2006 06:07 PM
Could you not make a strong case that democracy is best earned not issued? Japan stands out as an exception to the rule, but no other nations leap to mind.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 06:13 PM
you won't see anyone on this blog pretending that clinton was some kind of hero
Har har har - I just wet myself!!!!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 06:20 PM
Why don't we stand off, and zap the people when they become more public, remove U.S. as the dominant force, but act in a "deus ex machina" role.
that wouldn't be a good example of decidering.
it would entail a benevolence that goes against the grain of the profiteering malevolence of bushco.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 06:20 PM
Instead of solving the Iraq issue the admin. would rather drain the freedom from America and replace it with fascism. That would avoid the nasty embarassment of Chimpster saying he was wrong.
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 06:32 PM
Be sure to check your neighborhood for terrorists, otherwise "you know who" will.
Den out!
Posted by: DEN at August 16, 2006 06:37 PM
MP5: Could you not make a strong case that democracy is best earned not issued? Japan stands out as an exception to the rule, but no other nations leap to mind.
Or that democratization is a bottom-up rather than top-down process.
Japan is a democracy only to the extent that they hold elections. The LDP has held nearly uninterrupted political power since the U.S. occupation. But the real power lies with the unelected bureaucrats, who have a habit of retiring from government service and going to work for the very corporations they were charged with overseeing. It's a corporatocracy in the truest sense.
Sound familiar?
Posted by: Drewp at August 16, 2006 06:40 PM
sneaky mans 67, (great moniker!) We must forgive and forget that little incident, it was a long time ago and only 34 of our people were brutally slaughtered, they failed to kill the rest. But the mission was accomplished anyway, that ship was unable to witness the events at the Golan Heights. I am waiting with bated breath for the first reports from all these trolls about their wonderful vacation to the new and improved, America style Iraq. I hope they will be cautious, I hear there is a radiation problem over there, they may want to pack the appropiate clothing. Send us a postcard!
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 06:40 PM
Saladin: I hear there is a radiation problem over there, they may want to pack the appropiate clothing.
Lead underwear?
Posted by: Drewp at August 16, 2006 06:45 PM
Chertoff discusses new security measures
Airlines will soon be required to give the government passenger lists for all U.S.-bound international flights before takeoff, the nation's homeland security chief said Wednesday.
The new regulations, which could be in place by early next year, would make permanent a counterterror measure taken after last week's foiled plot to bomb trans-Atlantic flights.
"This is part of our border authority," Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said in an interview with The Associated Press.
"The reason we haven't moved this is because the airlines were concerned about what they would do about passengers who would come up at the last minute, and they don't want to hold the flights up," Chertoff said. "Our position has been: Isn't it better to know before the plane takes off than to turn the plane around? Which I think is correct. So we're on a course to getting this piece nailed down."
===========
Terrorists everywhere, hating our freedoms!
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 06:51 PM
#104
Valid points. However they do hold elections and can surprise the politicians every once in a while. The Post Office will not be privatized any time soon, nor will the farm subsidies disappear. Both would benefit the ruling class but the ÒfolkÓ make sure they stay in place.
In all seriousness can you think of another "democracy" with more than 10 years tenure that has been "installed"?
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 06:52 PM
Drewp, HA!
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 06:53 PM
hey lbh, why don't you call your ma the kinds of things that INFRACTION! called the ladies on this blog and see if she says sticks and stones or if she slaps your mouth.
My ma worked as a waitress in a tavern for many years and could Infractions ass. My ma can take care of herself.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:00 PM
that ship was unable to witness the events at the Golan Heights
Why such a secret? US military attachŽ staff were in the Golan.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 07:01 PM
Kick - kick Infractions ass - damn!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:02 PM
Notice how Panty Queen goes away when the gay humor stops - go figure!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:05 PM
good for your ma. but that doesn't excuse INFRACTION's foulness nor your endorsement of it the other day.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 07:08 PM
a lot of good it did huh? Israel got away with both the attack of our spy vessel and stealing the Jordan river at the Golan Heights. One river down, how many to go?
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 07:12 PM
Re #108 --- I would say that the Bonn govenment was installed. While the Germans had had a brief period of democracy in the Weimar republic, before that there was a king with a well known chancellor.
Further, in some sense the democracy in South Korea was installed.
Posted by: David B. Benson at August 16, 2006 07:12 PM
good for your ma. but that doesn't excuse INFRACTION's foulness nor your endorsement of it the other day.
I've never endorsed Infractions foulness. I engaged in my own foulness in gay humor yesterday with the participation of many Cornnuts. The difference is I appologized, they didn't. Now quit lying!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:15 PM
I will not appologize for Panty's momma being so ugly that I mistook her for his pappa. I just wanted to straighten that up once and for all.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:17 PM
almost 2 rivers down - the litani river is being skoded as we speak.
_______
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 07:20 PM
#115
The point is I really don't think the US gave a rats ass if the Golan was taken. The KH 7, 8 and 9 in addition to the presence of the attacheÕs staff makes Noam's argument look at tad weird. I agree that there was never proper reparations paid nor even an apology, however Noam is WAY off base on the theory of why.
#116
Bonn I make an exception for while it was installed, there was a history, albeit brief, of democracy.
SK not so much. There were a lot of dead protesters and people thrown in prison to bring about that democracy.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 07:26 PM
regardless of the motives, the uss liberty was sneak attacked by bushco-peer israelis, covered up by other bushco-peers and is still being ignored by bushco wannabes to this day.
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 07:36 PM
"bushco-peer israelis" in "67? LMAO
When you get as worked up about the Cole as you do about the Liberty you will have some balance. Oh but I forgot the Cole was bushco too. Sorry about that.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 07:41 PM
That leaves, as the biblical borders they claim are given to them by God in perpetuity, The River of Eqypt and the Euphrates.
From Wiki
Foundations and founding
Avraham ("Yair") Stern was originally an adherent of the Revisionist Zionist movement founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky in the early 1920s and a member of Irgun, but separated from these groups in 1940 to form his own group, which he called Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel).
Specifically, Stern believed that the Jewish population should focus its efforts on fighting the British rather than supporting them in World War II; and that forceful methods were an effective means to achieve those goals. He differentiated between "enemies of the Jewish people" (e.g., the British) and "Jew haters", (e.g., the Nazis), believing that the former needed to be defeated, and the latter neutralized. To this end, he initiated contact with Nazi authorities offering an alliance with Germany in return for transferring Europe's Jews to Palestine and the establishment of a Jewish state therein.
Avraham Stern crystalized the ideology of his organization in what was called the "18 Principles of Rebirth":
THE NATION The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.
THE HOMELAND The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.
THE NATION AND ITS LAND Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will.
WAR Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.
CONQUEST The conquest of the homeland from foreign rule and its eternal possession.
These are the tasks of the movement during the period of sovereignty and redemption:
SOVEREIGNTY Renewal of Hebrew sovereignty over the redeemed land.
ALIENS Solve the problem of alien population by exchange of population.
Justification of terrorism
An article titled "Terror" in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper), Issue 2, August 1943, argued as follows. The full text of the article is available at Wikiquote.
Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle.
We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: Obliterate—until destruction. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.
But primarily terror is part of our political battle under present conditions and its role is large and great. (Combine that with the Mossad motto, "by deception thou shalt do war" and it explains a lot.)
==========
Aliens? Me thinks herein lies the problem. The "Aliens" are not in agreement with this plan. The most moral teaching in the world, obliterate until destruction? My goodness, and they bitch about Islam! It seems apparent they still cling to this philosophy.
Interesting read. Work with the Nazis but murder the British, the very ones working to get them their precious Israel back? Zionism is a parasite and as crazy as any murdering fundamentalist on the planet, only MUCH better armed. Psychos with nuclear WMD'S. Remember what Golda Meir said.
Lehi (group)
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 07:42 PM
James
I hear Israel is responsible for those crop circles in your back yard.
OMG is it really true?
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:47 PM
Authorities Warning Women Not to Wear Gel Bras As Worries of Possible Female Bombers Increase
August 16, 2006 11:19 AM
Richard Esposito and Anna Schecter Report:
U.S. authorities are advising women not to wear gel bras on airplanes as information developed in the foiled London plot points to an expanding role for women in smuggling explosives on to an aircraft.
Authorities at Scotland Yard are questioning a husband and wife, suspects in the London terror plot, about allegations that they were planning to use their baby's bottle to hide a liquid bomb.
Police in the U.K. have recovered baby bottles containing peroxide, including some with false bottoms, from a recycling center close to the homes of some of the arrested suspects.
============
Attention attention, beware female terrorists with exploding bras and baby bottles, and babies for that matter. Has anyone even bothered to ask even one scientific question about these liquid explosives? Like, can a baby bottle or hair gels worth blow up an airplane? If so, why don't they just tape them under their clothes where they aren't likely to be found? They have the science down? but not the logistics? Are you even the least bit skeptical yet?
Posted by: Saladin at August 16, 2006 07:51 PM
Authorities Warning Women Not to Wear Gel Bras As Worries of Possible Female Bombers Increase
Damn, if only we could get you one of those exploding bras!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:53 PM
Re #120: Then you should, in all fairness, consider Japan to be a 'special case' as well. Under the Meiji constitution there was a popularly elected Diet with the power to initiate laws as well as approve of executive actions. Modeled on the Prussian system.
Posted by: David B. Benson at August 16, 2006 07:54 PM
Finally an Arab with some sanity unlike the ones Saladin supports:
Jordan Calls for Arab Peacemaking With Israel
Wednesday, Aug. 16, 2006
AMMAN, Jordan -- Jordan called Tuesday for the immediate resumption of Arab peacemaking with Israel, saying the time was ripe after guns fell silent in the Lebanese-Israeli conflict.
King Abdullah II warned that the Lebanon conflict "could be repeated unless the international community shoulders its responsibility and works for a comprehensive solution to he Arab-Israeli conflict."
The "stalemate...jeopardizes the opportunities for peace and stability in the region," Abdullah said in talks with German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who is on a tour of Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
Government spokesman Nasser Judeh said Jordan was working with Arab governments to revive the peace process with Israel.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:56 PM
Or, you could compare Clinton's defeat by a tiny band of thugs in Mogadishu. . . This is where the Democrats first learned to cut and run!
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 03:42 PM
Clinton wasn't responsible for force strength in Mogadishu and his General, Powell, learned from that mistake. All future incursions would merit overwhelming force, subsequently known as the "Powell Doctrine."
Then came Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield with their know-it-all transformational army. Out with overwhelming force and in with we-know-better, we'll be received as liberators, and it'l be paid for with oil revenues.
The arrogance and ignorance of neo-con power and right-wing nuttery.
Cut and Run was invented by Reagan. One car bomb and 249 american soldiers killed and Reagan tucks his cowardly tail between his legs a leaves Lebanon to readicalized shia now, Hezbollah.
I wish LBH knew something.
Posted by: All the Kings Men at August 16, 2006 07:57 PM
Heres the guy Saladin supports:
Syria President Assad Threatens War
Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad says his country is prepared for war with Israel and warned that the Golan Heights would be seized "by Syrian hands.Ó
Can't you freaks just give peace a chance?
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 07:58 PM
A slightly different twist on Mr. Stern. Someone I would want looking after my kids? Probably not. However they did have an aversion to killing non military targets. Something that I think has escaped (?) Saladin's otherwise extensive research.
Yair was the nom de guerre of Avraham Stern, who in 1940 broke away from the Irgun Tzva'i Le'umi (Etzel), later headed by Menachem Begin, and founded the Lohamei Herut Yisrael (LEHI, the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, derisively called by the British the "Stern Gang"). Stern was a brilliant leader, well-versed in Torah as well as in the classics of Greek and Western philosophy, secular arts and culture, and the sciences. His numerous writings, both prose and poetry, are lucid and inspiring. His poem Unknown Soldierswas adopted by both the Irgun and the LEHI as their anthems. Together with David Raziel he wrote the Irgun textbooks on small-arms and military training. An officer in the Irgun, Yair broke away due to a disagreement over priorities: the Irgun, believed that the fight against the British had to be suspended for the duration of World War Two, since the British army was engaged in defeating the Nazis; the Irgun therefore limited their actions against the British to those organizations and units actively trying to prevent Jewish immigration into the Land of Israel. Stern, by contrast, believed that the British constituted the enemy of the Jewish People no less than the Germans, as they were actively preventing Jewish lives from being saved. The fate of the Jewish People, he argued, would be determined by an independent Jewish State, and the obstacle to that independence was Britain rather than Germany.
Posted by: mp5 at August 16, 2006 07:59 PM
Cornnuts new Thursday night funnies:
Iranian Cartoons Mock Holocaust
An exhibition of more than 200 cartoons about the Holocaust opened in Iran on Monday.
The exhibition is in response to last year's Muslim outrage over a caricature of the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.
The display, showing 204 entries from Iran and abroad, was strongly influenced by the views of Iran's hardline president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who drew widespread condemnation last year for questioning the Holocaust.
One cartoon by Indonesian Tony Thomdean shows the Statue of Liberty holding a book on the Holocaust in its left hand and giving a Nazi-style salute with the other.
Posted by: LBH at August 16, 2006 08:01 PM
122)
are you trying to say that the israelis are not bushco peers?
who blew up the cole? bushco allies?
Posted by: flying mr. sneaky mans! at August 16, 2006 08:02 PM
mp5, the USS Cole? You mean like the attack on the Marines in Beirut in 1983? "BY DECEPTION."
CSI Forensics Proves Who Killed US Marines - Evidence shows Israel is Guilty
By Ralph Forbes
The "official version" put out by the federal government still repeated today was that the explosion was caused by a truck loaded with "2,000 pounds of dynamite" rammed the building. No one with any knowledge of explosives believed the "official version, because that explosion could not have been caused by TNT, just as fuel oil can't melt steel; or as General Parton proved, a Ryder truck of fertilizer could not