"Who would Jesus torture?
Who would Jesus execute?"

...indeed, Capt!

Thank you, David, for this.

No

State sponsored killing does not just stop at death penalty cases as the events in Iraq have proven. Daily executions are a way of life there and there is no one to commute innocent civilians sentence.

richard ramirez the night stalker has been on death row since being convicted and sentenced to death in 1989, at an estimated cost of $25k/year. a dentist must be brought in to care for his teeth or he would be able to sue for lack of care. some fool woman fell in love with ramirez, and he was allowed to marry her.

there are entire families here in los angeles that some how manage to get by on far less than $25k/year and can't afford to see a dentist, yet ramirez remains alive and well to this day.

I feel torn about the death penalty. I can't help but think that people like ramirez and bundy and all the serial killers that society has produced have got to be seriously ill, mentally. But what do you do? Shoot them like a rabid dog? Charge the taxpayers to keep them alive until death should they part? Give them a lobotomy? How do you treat a sickness like that? What Jesus was able to do and what we are able to do are two different things. If only it was a simple task to "cast out demons," or rewire fried circuits. Two movies that hit me hard were "The Green Mile" and "The Life of David Gale", both dealing with the death penalty and both left me in tears. This is one subject that I have no answer for. Life isn't a movie.

The real mystery to me is the "Pro-Life" stance.

I understand being opposed to abortion, and in that sense being pro-life. But why are so many self included "Pro-Life"ers also in favor of the death penalty? Did they miss the word death in its name?

Thanks for this post David, I totally agree with you. If our society believes that the death penalty is a deterent then the entire process should be televised. Every step the person takes walking down the hall for the last time, up unil the last gasp for breath and followed by the slow-moving (almost a paradox as well) medical team verifying death.

Who makes this decision? The FCC or individual states?

Can you imagine hoping for a "beautiful" and "purposeful" life for the killer of your brother and his wife? That takes a lot of heart. - David Corn

**********

9/11 Victims' Families Begin Long Walk for Peace
by Adam Gorlick

They hit the road Wednesday with little fanfare, and their burden was heavy - 1,400 pounds to be exact.

A dozen peace activists - including several who lost relatives on Sept. 11, 2001 - set out from Boston on a 230-mile walk to New York City, pushing and pulling a granite slab that looks like an oversized tombstone.

The group is hauling its message of nonviolence from the Democratic National Convention here to the Republicans' presidential nominating event at the end of next month.

"Our suffering from pushing this stone is nothing like the suffering of those who have lost loved ones to violence and war," said David Potorti, 48, of Cary, N.C., whose brother Jim was killed in the World Trade Center attack.

*******************

Yesterday, at an address in Philadelphia, in response to a question, aWol allowed that approxamately 30,000 Iraqi citizens have died as a result of our attack/occupation/war which he dated from the date of 9/11/01, when 3000 Americans died.

Were we extracting vengence seven fold, we have extracted an excess; without addressing whether Iraq was the address of the attacker in the first place.

An eye for an eye was considered progress by early judicial reformers.

Bush claims to follow the teachings of Jesus, whose message has come to us be one of forgiveness.

*******************
Cheney: Involved in the low wage slave trade, espionage, and war profiteering. - Wayne Madsen

What was not anticipated by Cheney was that the FBI would step in and arrest Aragoncillo for culling classified information from the FBI's computers at Fort Monmouth. This case, like the AIPAC espionage case involving top Pentagon officials, has been largely ignored by the media. However, along with the Plame case and AIPACgate, all roads lead back to Cheney's office at the White House.

******************************

So David, how's about pushing for that Phase II report?

Or maybe an interview with Sibel Edmonds?

Sal, no matter what, we have to respect human life. Killing is not the States' job. We are our brothers keeper, it is our obligation to be mercifull in our actions.

Iraq: State of the Disunion
An interview with Seymour Hersh
by Scott Horton

Horton: Bush has said just in this last week that he will settle for nothing less than "complete victory," as pressure mounts in both parties for some sort of timetable for American withdrawal. And as this is happening, the Iraqis are preparing to have an election in just a couple of weeks to choose their new government. I wonder what kind of results do you expect from the election and how you think that will compare to what the administration wants?

Hersh: Well, of course, nobody knows nothin'. But with that caveat – by that I mean, my opinion is my opinion and it doesn't make it a fact. I think the administration – as I wrote actually, in the article – is pushing very hard for Iyad Allawi, the secular Shi'ite that was interim prime minister, who's been pretty much in the game as an opposition leader living an exiled life in London. His main opposition is Ahmed Chalabi. Allawi is pretty much the candidate of the CIA, some in the State Department, and some in the White House. They love him because he will do what we want, and if we need someone to give us cover in terms of asking us to leave or asking us to withdraw, or whatever, he's going to be our man. He's also pretty tough. At one point, he was running his own militia. In his career, he's been inside. He has worked very close to Saddam Hussein inside the Mukhabarat Iraqi Secret Army and secret, if you will, the torture police. He's not an amateur at torture and he is not an amateur to bloody operations, but he is our guy. I don't think we will get what we want. I think what we are going to end up with will probably be Abdel Mahdi, who's a member of the Shi'ite coalition. He is now vice president of the country. He lives abroad, he's… like everybody almost everybody around, everybody involved, none of them seemed to have spent their life in Iraq. All have lived abroad, obviously because of Saddam, in opposition.

Most people focus on those being executed, all the bad things they have done, how they don't deserve to live. I will say nothing to defend them, they are scum.

But what does it say about us as a society to condone and advocate killing of others, for whatever reason. It is wrong to kill. Killing more because it is wrong doesn't make it better. It's wrong.

Reflection:

We know now that the torture of al-Libi lead to the misinformation that contributed to our going to war.

We know that Tookie Williams was convicted by testimony given by those who were also facing the judicial system.

We know that prosecutors regularly offer reduced sentences to those who plead to lesser offenses or offer testimony to convict others.

We know that many innocent people plead guilty for minor offences to avoid the expense and risk of trial.

We know better.

DEN, I agree with you. It is ironic that Tookie was executed for murder committed 24 years ago, yet the sharon/bush thugs have been committing murder on a genocidal scale for 3 + years and continue to do so. They can completely ignore all international laws and use any and all weapons and tactics against completely helpless and innocent civilians, yet they are still free to roam. I think about the victims of 9/11, I can see that poor lady standing in the opening left by the plane, she is trapped, she will die. The perpetrators of that crime are living in luxury, waging war on people who had nothing to do with 9/11, who were no threat to us whatsoever, and I will admit, I would not be adverse to seeing those blood thirsty psychos lined up in front of a firing squad and shot right in the face! I will never respect any life that has absolutely zero respect for anyone elses, and is perfectly happy to crush all in the path of their goals. My only comfort is that the day is coming for them, and if I'm still alive I will dance on their graves!

PRESTONSBURG, Kentucky (AP) -- Dottie Neeley, 87, was fingerprinted, photographed and thrown in jail, imprisoned as much by the tubing from her oxygen tank as by the concrete and steel around her.
The woman -- who spent two days in jail after her arrest last December -- is among a growing number of Kentucky senior citizens charged in a crackdown on a crime authorities say is rampant in Appalachia: Elderly people are reselling their painkillers and other medications to addicts.

"When a person is on Social Security, drawing $500 a month, and they can sell their pain pills for $10 apiece, they'll take half of them for themselves and sell the other half to pay their electric bills or buy groceries," Floyd County jailer Roger Webb said.
-------------
Kill the pain, or heat your house. Maybe going to jail is the best alternative. Every morning when I wake up that train is a little closer, a little louder.

Mr. David Corn,

"Can you imagine hoping for a "beautiful" and "purposeful" life for the killer of your brother and his wife? That takes a lot of heart."

That takes more heart and grace than I think I could ever muster. Thank goodness I have never lost anybody to a violent crime.

I do not believe in the death penalty in the abstract as I have never had to face it firsthand. I hope I never have to face such a challenge.

There was a woman who lost her only child to a murderer. A senseless horrible crime. Her husband had passed and her daughter was her only family. She spoke at the sentencing hearing and asked the court to spare the murderer the death penalty. She did not want the mother of the murderer to suffer the same loss she had suffered, not her in daughters name. I doubt I have that much heart.

I think the broadcast of a death of any sort is gruesome but I am a firm believer in everything being available. The viewer must take full responsibility for what they choose to watch. We should have access to everything, good bad or ugly if I do not like something I can change the channel or push the off button.

Another good post!

Thanks

Kirk

Sal, kinda ironic isn't it? Boils down to the old saying; If everybody else jumped off a cliff would you? Others will always kill others, it is a human trait. We can dispense pain as well as pleasure.

Title: Serial Killer Confesses to 30,000 Murders; Receives Applause
Source: Empire Burlesque
URL Source: http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.ph ... tent&task=view&id=337&Itemid=1
Published: Dec 13, 2005
Author: Chris Floyd
Post Date: 2005-12-13 10:53:57

"I done kilt me 10 times as many as old Osama ever done," Exults Bush

From the New York Daily News: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis," Bush said..."I made a tough decision. And knowing what I know today, I'd make the decision again."

Knowing what I know today....that there were no weapons of mass destruction, there were not any active programs for weapons of mass destruction, that the weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed in 1991, that there was no Iraqi link to al Qaeda or 9/11, that Iranian-backed theocrats would come to rule the country with death squads and torture, that by his own (lowball) admission, 30,000 Iraqis would be slaughtered and tens of thousands of Americans left dead or maimed....Bush would make that decision again.

Says it all, doesn't it? Again, by Bush's own confession, the war really wasn't about any of the ostensible reasons he offered before the invasion. Because even if those reasons lacked all substance -- which even Bush now acknowledges is the case -- he would make that decision again.

So what was the war for? Profits. Power. Petrochemicals. And the need of weak, soul-damaged men for violence and death to assert their "dominance" and maintain their illusion of superiority.
------------
This is the evil creature the trolls come here to lavish praise on.

Saladin,

I'm afraid that three hots and a cot is more than many in our society currently enjoy.

I am now listening to the Diane Rehm show and Katrina Vaden Houlen (spell) is her guest. Katrina is as you know one of my foxes to read for patriotic information. capt gave me her name and she was added to my list of foxes.

Spot on, David.

Peace.

"If everybody else jumped off a cliff would you? "

Depends, how high is the cliff and if everybody means everybody then why not?

HA!

capt

Read this morning one in three homeless is a veteran. So we actually treat our convicts far better than our vets.

How can that be? It is just plain wrong.

capt

Capt, Misplaced priorities produce misplaced people.

Regarding Tookie I oppose capital punishment but there are certain acts that should permit the death penalty. I do not have enough information to speak for or against Tookie's death penalty. I can only hope and pray that Tootie's soul was prepared to meet his and our Maker.

Maybe I'm re-posting because I got up on the wrong side of the bed...from the previous thread.

159

Using the "troll" defense as a shield against recognizing that certain bloggers degrade women to try to make their point, is well...not very honorable, IMO. Kaff, thanks for your comments. While I do not expect, nor need, men to come to my defense in this setting (a blog), I do think that the response to Kaff displays his "male intellectual segregation" -- his response is typical of the most privileged segment of the population in America: "white male." I won't go so far as to call it misogyny...but...

"I think you are noticing a great amount of strength and resolve from the men that post here because you will find very few willing to engage in silly name-calling." -- Nice of you to speak for all the fellows, capt!

"Too bad we have a few women that cannot show the same amount of strength and resolve." -- Oh? Thank you, Daddy, for using your paternal/moral authority to keep us in our place.

"To respond to name calling is a troll game - quit playing and they will go elsewhere." He who makes the rules...

"Quit feeding the troll unless you like being called a "c"." Oh, in other words, we get what we deserve, eh?

"...most of us know better and have better manners than to engage a cad." Definition of cad: : a man who acts with deliberate disregard for another's feelings or rights.

So, tell me, are you suggesting that cads should insult women with impunity? On second thought, don't bother.

what WOULD jesus do in regards to the likes of ramirez, bundy, etc.? - I suspect that he and his peers would give john wayne gacy a stern talking to, and would probably allow the "turning over a new leaf" or "repenting of sins". and when that tactic failed, they would probably condone a good stoning. - I'm pretty sure that mother nature would not tolerate serial killers. look at bees; when a bee turns rogue it is destroyed by the other bees. cancerous cells must be excised from the body or they continue to damage the surrounding cells.

NESARA

To implement reformations, five Justices spent years negotiating 'Accords' with U.S. government and other parties. Because the Accords process did not work, the Justices authorized the reformations be put into the form of a law named the National Economic Security And Reformation Act (NESARA) which was passed secretly in March 2000. Secrecy was maintained by revising official records and strict gag orders. News of NESARA came out of U.S. naval intelligence in June 2000.

NESARA was to be announced at 10 a.m. EDT on 11th September, 2001. The attacks on the World Trade Centre occurred just before 9 am that day.

^^^^^^^^^^6

yet more connecting of 911 dots

Murder is always murder, even if done by the State. I have never understood how revenge can help bereaved families find closure. I suspect that in the long run it allows them to quell their anger, but it cannot help them elaborate their loss. It must delay their need for finding peace because they have to identify with the same violence that carried off their loved one. I would oppose the death sentence even for the arch-mass murderers in the White House.

There is another point to make here: Liberal ideology always identifies the individual as the source of merit or blame. S/he is the responsible one. I believe society should share the blame for having produced a killer. Why was nobody there to protect the little boy or girl who later became a delinquent when s/he was growing up resentful, deprived and lonely? Legal executions are a ritual by which society can say, “Look, it was him/her, not me that did it.”

I wrote this letter to the governor of California this morning:

Dear Mr. Schwarzenegger:

This is a comment on your having permitted the execution of Stanley “Tookie” Williams. I deeply regret that you have chosen to associate your legacy with death and revenge. I suppose you perceived that you would obtain some short-term political advantage from this. But history will only remember your impoverished sense of humanity. The great names like Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King are those that will be remembered with affection by your grandchildren.

Micki,

As long as they post anything they like, if not responding is impunity then yes. Come on rise about them, you are better than they are. I know this is true.

If they address an interesting issue or show some common respect they deserve to be addressed, not the other way around.

That is just why opinion. I do not even claim to be right, just opinionated. I think you know that.

Why would anybody care what I opine? Cerntainly no reason to get curt.

You seem to always think I am talking down, I apologize, that is never my intention. I am challenged to express myself clearly. My limitation(s) should not bug you, I have too many to let that happen.

capt

Micki,

As long as they post anything they like, if not responding is impunity then yes. Come on rise about them, you are better than they are. I know this is true.

If they address an interesting issue or show some common respect they deserve to be addressed, not the other way around.

That is just why opinion. I do not even claim to be right, just opinionated. I think you know that.

Why would anybody care what I opine? Cerntainly no reason to get curt.

You seem to always think I am talking down, I apologize, that is never my intention. I am challenged to express myself clearly. My limitation(s) should not bug you, I have too many to let that happen.

capt

"Murder is always murder, even if done by the State."

That really says it all.

capt

ADD:

On the death certificates of death penalty victims is homicide.

(it was either victims or recipients)

capt

Mode of death - or whatever. You know what I mean.

What would Jesus do? answers here

Oops, sorry Jesus, Here

American Soldiers

American soldiers are being killed like flies for Bush's lies. To date 2,396 American soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

OF COURSE, NONE OF THEM WAS GOING TO GET SHOT AT. NONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER TO THE MOTHERS AND FATHERS OF DEAD SOLDIERS AND MARINES. GENERAL SCHWARZKOPF

DON'T PATRONIZE ME WITH TALK ABOUT HUMAN LIVES. COLIN LAPDOG POWELL

It sounds like human lives are not important to Lapdog.

There is no sense trying to make sense from those who have no sense!

Wolfowitz + World Bank = War + Poverty

As Diebold goes, so goes the election!

American democracy is dead as we know it. We are now OUTSOURCING our dead American democracy around the world with our dead and maimed soldiers who are fighting in foreign lands so these lands can revel in our dead democracy.

My fellow Americans, Bush does not view our Constitution as a piece of paper. He views our Constitution as a piece of toilet paper so he can wipe his ass with it.

PEACE TAKES COURAGE!

Oops, Sorry Jesus!

(What did Pres. Bush say when he finally realized that he is responsible for AT LEAST 30,000 dead innocents.)

Oops, Sorry Jesus!

(What did Pres. Bush say when he finally realized that he is responsible for AT LEAST 30,000 dead innocents.)

Scratches head, wondering how that double post happened....

...having gotten the error message, hit back and cut the text out of the box....

...hit refresh and noticed my post wasn't there...

...pasted it back in the box and hit post...

...and it is there twice!

Must be Devine Intervention...

...or something.

capt -- I did not "feed the trolls" -- yesterday, I posted my opinion about the value of visuals in telling a story adequately and forcefully. The "troll" as you call him, is the one who came out from under his and inflamed the discourse with the c-word.

Frankly, IMO, you were insulting to suggest that it was I who cast the first aspersion. What I posted yesterday was in the same genre as that which David examined thoughtfully in his post about broadcasting Tookie Williams' execution -- the power of visuals, done in our name, with our money.

Should the "troll" surface and call David names? If he/she did, you'd probably be the first one to defend David. So be it.

Saladin, (#14)

I haven't seen it myself, but I am told it is becoming neccessary to test people who are being treated with narcotics for chronic pain for the prescribed medications.

At the same time, it is becoming more common for doctors to prescribe twice the dosage needed for MANY medications so that fixed, low or no-income elderly can halve their daily meds and pay far less for their presciptions.

It is a practical, if somewhat ethically questionable assistance that a doc can offer. It falls flat if the patient is selling off half (or ALL!) of their meds.

-T

Sorry, should have been...

"I haven't seen it myself, but I am told it is becoming neccessary to test people who are being treated with narcotics for chronic pain for the prescribed medications...TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE TAKING THEM!"

-T

Miplaced priorities produce misplaced people? What does that mean to you DEN? Try thinking the other way around. People come before situations. Those soldiers who are now homeless as a "result" of war did not come as a result of their priorities during the war then and the war now is a priority because it is their Commander in Chief's priority. The majority are over there because they are actually trying to do some good in their eyes and there are people who are happy they are over there. Are there truly people that naive to think that the rules of war are about murder? Maybe it is because that death is all you see in the media and people can't help themselves but to believe it all and continue to feed the lies with no merit.
Was WWI and WWII murder on behalf of the United State too? And yes, I can agree that we went into this war on false pretenses, but are there not a majority of people who will come out of this no longer tortured and persecuted? Read some books on the subject- pre-and post-war.

Good one Robert! Divine intervention indeed! Gotta laugh to keep from crying, happened to me yesterday when posting.

The double post is the blog liking the content so much . .

I do the same. I get an error, I back, refresh, I have even opened a new window and no post shows, then I post and there are two of them.

I am a bit scared of the 30k number, I get a gut feeling the number is not as high as he would like it to be.

A kind of bloodlust thing.

capt

"you were insulting to suggest that it was I who cast the first aspersion"

Never intended any such thing and certainly not am insult? I know the troll came out of nowhere and posted the insult.

I never said that, never thought, never meant to sugest anything that you did was wrong?

I was addressing the post from Kaff?

capt

Is Jesus Liberal?

I cannot say whether or not Jesus is a liberal. I have tried to study Jesus and His life and I have come to the conclusion that Jesus loves the sinner but not the sin.

Of all the sins that are committed Jesus had great affection for harlots. He loved them more because women during Jesus' time on earth had very tough lives. A woman was considered below a man's possessions and his children. If a woman's husband died, she was at the mercy of the husband's family and her family to be taken into their home and helped. Many women were not accepted and they were left on the street to survive by themselves. Some became harlots.

Children of a dead father were more readily accepted because they could do the work and much of the work was hard labor so the children had some value. Their mothers had to fend for themselves.

Micki,

It was Kaff that said "where art the gentlemen"? And said the guys always piled on the troll for such things.

I was in complete agreement with your post about the visuals. I had not seen where you posted to the troll so, you were not even in the equation until you jumped in to it?

Just sayin'

capt

PS - Still all apologies, just the same. I never had you in mind when I was writing the post.

I agree, lets publicize executions... and lets use better methods, hanging or the Gullitine... quick and gristly. Lets also have the penalty carried out within 3 years of conviction. Handle all appeals at once and eliminate all the legalistic jargon appeals. Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure.
I will agree to end all executions so long as you, or someone, will vouch for their good behavior and back it up with your property and liberty.
A murder whose sentence is commuted can later be accidently released or pardoned, and go on to commit more crimes. A person who has been put to death cannot. Amazing thing about executed murderers, they never commit another violent crime.

National Socialism

#43, CO, I was directing attention toward the misplaced priorities of the leadership currently in office. We don't have to look too far for examples; The Katrina aftermath management, more like MISmanagement resulting in failure to care for the most helpless among us.

America is really spreading theocracy and not democracy to other nations.

Making the World Safe for Theocracy

Byrd Warns Frist Against 'Nuclear Option'

By JESSE J. HOLLAND
The Associated Press
Monday, December 12, 2005; 5:32 PM

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia said Monday he doesn't expect Democrats to filibuster the nomination of Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito, but he still chastised Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist for threatening to stop any such effort through a drastic parliamentary effort that has been dubbed the "nuclear option."

"If he ever tries to exercise that, he's going to see a real filibuster if I'm living and able to stand on my feet or sit in my seat," Byrd said in a Senate debate with Frist, R-Tenn.

"If the senator wants a fight, let him try it," said Byrd, the Senate's senior Democrat. "I'm 88 years old, but I can still fight, and fight I will for freedom of speech. I haven't been here for 47 years to see that freedom of speech whittled away and undermined. "

*****end of clip*****

Go big Byrd!

capt

America is really spreading theocracy and not democracy to other nations.

Making the World Safe for Theocracy

Where do ya'll get your information on the reason for war from??? Not a single concern about the occupation in Serbia, but a nation that had attacked others, flounted the UN and sponsored terrorism against US citizens was unjustified. Saddam HAD weapons of mass destruction and was ordered to destroy them as part of Desert Storm peace negotions. He never lived up to his end so we should have been back MUCH sooner. He had 10 years to show that he had completed what he was supposed to do in 1 year, and he never bothered to. Chemical weapons WERE found, YELLOW CAKE was found, banned weapons WERE found, TERRORIST were harbored, trained and funded. Clinton, Albright, Dashel, Briton, France and the UN all agreed there were still weapons of mass destruction in Saddams possession. THE WAR WAS AND IS JUSTIFIED!!! Stop dishonoring our soldiers and our nation. We won the war, now we are dealing with crimminal elements... just like after WW2. It is a long hard road and we must be resolute.

PS: Pro life people can support the death penalty because an adult CHOOSE to commit a crime for which execution was a possible outcome. Aborted babies have committed NO crime.

Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure. Elton

A trial is the way we determine guilt. It is by definition a "legalese procedure." It is also by no means infallible. It is "legalese procedure" that helps avoid/mitigate the convictions of the innocent.

Amazing thing about executed murderers, they never commit another violent crime. - Elton

And how many have died in the names of the executed?

In Jesus' name?

Or perhaps, in the name of Archduke Ferdinand?

saladin & hajji 14 & 41 ~

regarding pain and prescribings::

Blame The Patient!

the official justifications for the war in Iraq have been many ~ and there are just as many unofficial justifications ~ what REALLY dishonors the troops? our pointing out of corruption/complicity at a govt. level? or the fact that some U.S. troops STILL don't have adequate body armor, and their V.A. benefits are being yanked out from under them? or how about the fact that many of the Iraqi insurgents are using Israeli equipment?

James,

My (middle) brother is both an M/S sufferer and now, a cancer patient.

Most of the docs I know are extremely careful with what they prescribe, not because of fear of DEA investigations, but simply that the trust factor between a doc and patience is so often abused. (by BOTH, of course!)

All ER docs have been fooled into prescribing unnecessary meds simply because the largest part of a diagnosis is based on what a patient tells them. Symptoms that get you presciptions for narcs and pretty easy to fake. ER Docs prescribe pain meds in small amouts, just to get someone by until they can follow-up with another doc.

Unfortunately, those docs are often as backed up and pressed for time as the ER docs.

I don't know any answers to the problem but can talk about examples of bad docs and bad patients all day.

(but not today, since I've got to go in to work now!)

later...

-T

Fitzgerald was long suspicious Rove had hidden evidence; Not swayed by last minute testimony, lawyers say
Jason Leopold and Larisa Alexandrovna

[...]In late January 2004, Fitzgerald sent a letter to his boss, then acting Attorney General James Comey, seeking confirmation that he had the authority to investigate and prosecute individuals for additional crimes, including obstruction of justice, perjury, and destroying evidence. The leak investigation had been centered up to that point on an obscure law making it a felony for any government official to knowingly disclose the identity of an undercover CIA officer.

Comey responded to Fitzgerald in writing Feb. 6, 2004, confirming that Fitzgerald had the authority to prosecute those crimes, including “perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.”

Fitzgerald was concerned that Rove had hidden or destroyed evidence, lawyers close to the case tell RAW STORY. His suspicions may have been right: an email he sent to then Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in early July 2003 later proved Rove had spoken to Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper about Plame—a fact that Rove omitted when he was first interviewed by the FBI.

Whether Fitzgerald knew in late January or early February 2004 about the existence of the email Rove sent to Hadley remains unknown. The email did not show up during a search ordered by then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales in 2003. Gonzales enjoined all White House staff to turn over any communication about Valerie Plame Wilson and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a vocal critic of the Iraq war who accused the Bush administration of twisting prewar Iraq intelligence. Gonzales’ request came 12 hours after senior White House officials had been told of the pending investigation.

Hadley did not respond to repeated requests to comment. Calls placed to the National Security Council were dropped by press office aides.

More.

"Legal proceedings under way in certain countries appear to show that individuals were abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal assistance procedures," Council of Europe rapporteur Dick Marty told a meeting of the body's human rights committee on Tuesday.

The Swiss senator said the results of his investigation lent credibility to reports that the CIA flew terrorist suspects to and from secret prisons in Europe.

"The elements we have gathered so far tend to reinforce the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees -- outside all judicial procedure -- in European countries," he said.

The rapporteur "demands immediately that all member governments fully commit to uncovering the truth about flights and overflights on their territory in recent years, by aircraft transporting people arrested and detained outside of any legal procedure."

What is good for General Motors is good for...

...India...

Anne Penketh - A war and its fearsome consequences:

How the world has changed post-Iraq
President Bush said yesterday that 'the year 2005 will be a turning point in the history of freedom'. But since the start of the war the days have been littered with unintended consequences.

I don't agree with the death penalty, but I am also wary of people who have committed horrible crimes. Locking them up forever is a costly affair, and killing them is obviously wrong. I thought maybe prisons could enclose some fields and let the prisoners grow their own food and build their own houses so we would not have to support them. Then I thought maybe we should use all that money that goes to fund the prison system to PREVENT these criminals from ever surfacing in our society. A person that grows up with love and happiness is highly unlikely to become a serial killer. One who grows up in an abusive, sadistic, hate-filled home is quite likely to become a criminal. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" rings true here. Best to deal with the problem before it even starts.

hajj, I have ms too and I can't imagine having to deal with cancer as well, so your brother has my sympathy ~ but my docs are cool guys and allow me to set my own dosages ~ I hate narcotics/pain meds because they seem to be quite habit forming so I avoid those like the plague, but I can see how important they are to other patients ~

High Level Officials Warn Of Fake Terror

A variety of current and former high-level officials have recently warned that the Bush administration is attempting to instill a dictatorship in America, and will itself carry out a fake terrorist attack in order to obtain one.

duh.

David's suggest would not have the effect that he hopes. It would indeed coarsen our culture and would eventually immunize Americans to the horror of executions.

Televising executions would not force people to confront their pro-death penalty views -- you've all seen pictures of fetuses in various stages of development; has this made you all pro-life on the abortion issue? Is anyone here advocating televising abortions so pro-choice advocates could confront their views? Would you watch it if you could? Would you want your kids to watch it? The truth will set you free, right?

The people who want to watch executions are the same ones who like violent video games and movies. They don't care about guilt or innocence, they just want the visceral thrill. I know from file-sharing programs that a great many people enjoy looking at "Faces of Death" and other clips of gruesome footage. The 9/11 clips are also extremely popular downloads. The people in these clips are not convicted criminals--the idea that "he deserved it" would make the watching even better. Pass the popcorn!

Why did TV stations show the 9/11 planes hitting the building over and over and over? Why did we all see the Rodney King beatings 50 times? I make a point not to watch TV news but I saw these clips constantly because stations ran them every 15 minutes as PROMOS. The networks would love David's suggestion--and not because they're against the death penalty.

Seeing Rodney King get beaten over and over didn't not make me more and more against police brutality. It had the opposite effect. Eventually the clip became "normal" and ceased to elicit any kind of emotional response.

David takes a cavalier attitude about exposing children to executions. Remember that parents who oppose the death penalty would also have to monitor what their children watch. And TV stations know a goldmine when they see it -- the first execution would be played as news teasers ad nauseum (pun unavoidable) for weeks.

One thing that televising executions would definitely do is confirm to the rest of the world that Americans are bloodthirsty barbarians. The TV ratings would reinforce this view.

Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure. Elton

A trial is the way we determine guilt. It is by definition a "legalese procedure." It is also by no means infallible. It is "legalese procedure" that helps avoid/mitigate the convictions of the innocent. Robert Schwartz

So, do you agree that once the trial is over and appeals ended based on guilt that justice be served or are you for the neverending appeal process... You failed to put forth any conclusion, simply parroting my statement with an obvious statement.

And how many have died in the names of the executed?
In Jesus' name?
Or perhaps, in the name of Archduke Ferdinand?

Which executed are you asking about? Lots have been killed in the name of Jesus. The assination of Archduke Ferdinand was a reason quoted by Germany for beginning a world war... Did you have a point or are you just freeform postulating?

Pro Life -- Kill at a minimum of 30,000 Iraqis, 2100+ American men and women, 1000 prisoners on death row (since re-enacted), starve and let drown the poor in N.O.L.A, bomb abortion clinics, and attempt to save one 'dead' girl in Florida.
auto transport

Pro Life -- Kill at a minimum of 30,000 Iraqis, 2100+ American men and women, 1000 prisoners on death row (since re-enacted), starve and let drown the poor in N.O.L.A, bomb abortion clinics, and attempt to save one 'dead' girl in Florida.

yet still lagging behind the MILLIONS murderd in abortion clinics, and by the murders on Death Row.

(#53 Capt - Byrd warns against Nuclear Option)

Watch this on C-Span if you get the chance.

Byrd was indominable. Frist was plying the "give Alito a dignified hearing and an up or down vote or the majority will resort to the nuclear option" argument.

Byrd said the constituion does not give a nominiee the right to an up or down vote (he challenged Frist to identify the language in the constitution that affirms the right of a nominee to a senate vote). Byrd explained how the so called nuclear option is anethema to freedom of speech in the Senate. Byrd said that if he chose to fillibuster it would be for a damn good reason then he called out Frist's record on a cloture vote a few years back when Frist voted against cloture thereby affirming the rights of the minority.

I wish more Dems showed the guts this guy has.

So, do you agree that once the trial is over and appeals ended based on guilt that justice be served or are you for the neverending appeal process... You failed to put forth any conclusion, simply parroting my statement with an obvious statement. - Elton

Let us start with your 'justice be served' comment. Execution of a prisoner is never considered justice in most of the civilized world. Americans may just be a little behind the curve here, but as Martin Luther King Jr. observed, "Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." So let us start at the place where we determine that society has the right to remove dangerous individuals from the street, but not to execute them in cold blood.

Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality.

And far better an infinite appeals process than an innocent executed.

Did you have a point or are you just freeform postulating?

Violence begets violence.

"I wish more Dems showed the guts this guy has."

No doubt!

He is very keen on the constitution. I wish all of the politicians would just listen to him he is a wealth of information.

He has been right on many of the most important issues.

Not enough like him. Few are even close. *sigh*

capt

The Woman

Maybe you are aware that the military service has recalled a woman in her 40's to active duty. The woman is concerned because she does not know who will take care of her child. This woman has not served in the military for twenty years. It appears that once a person serves in the military, you will always be vulnerable to serve in the military until you turn 68 years of age. With this kind of treatment we see endless wars under Bush and his cabal.

I weep as an American at least daily for my America. I also cry to my God, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken us?" In a whisper God answers me, "I have not forsaken America; America has forsaken me." I have also asked God, "When God will you return to America?" God remains silent to my question. Most people are aware that silence is tacit approval of what is happening to and in America. God has given us a free will and with a free will comes consequences. As long as America turns her back on God, Americans cannot expect God to be with them at their beckon call. God needs to hear from us with an open and loving heart. Americans need a conversion in their hearts.

I also weep for the fact that this 2005 Christmas will be our last Christmas as free Americans. The 2006 election will have more evil and devil's disciples elected to the House and Senate. With the new Congress in January, 2007 there will be a reinstatement of the military draft to fight Bush's endless wars as cannon fodder. All we are for Bush and his cabal are cannon fodder. We will always be cannon fodder for the evil that permeates across America.

There will be some unrest in America and with this civil unrest we will be controlled by America’≥ goons and thugs. Americans will be placed in some unknown prisons and they will be tortured and killed. Americans will soon learn that in order to survive you must play the game. Men and women will learn to fight and once they are in harm's way for wrong and immoral wars, there will be more fragging of CO's in time of war. Fragging will occur at a higher rate than during the Vietnam war. Fragging is the release of grenade under the seat of a CO and it explodes. Fragments from the grenade dismembers human body parts. You will see a leg go one way; an arm goes another way; eyeballs will be plucked from the eye sockets; and the head will roll away from the body.

I continue to weep for the fact that there will be no 2008 elections with our loss in democracy and our freedoms from these Patriot Acts that control our lives. Bush will declare martial law before the 2008 elections and he will suspend the elections. Under the war powers act of 1947 and 1949 the President does have this power and since Bush craves to be a dictator, he will utilize these acts in 2008.

Let me wish everyone, especially Cornposters, a Merry Christmas and enjoy it while it lasts because this will be America's last Christmas as free Americans.

yes we should be allowed to see how our public funds are used and more importantly if it is neccessary for our state to go to war we should be able to stomach looking at the results of our actions. How many dead bodies of military and civilians have been shown on american TV??? Shock and Awe sounds like some great fireworks display but it obviously mangled the bodies of innocent civilians which were never shown on our airwaves.
Outta sight Outta mind, so hopes the powers of the state

The death penalty is contrary to the principles upon which our justice system was founded... let ten guilty men go free rather than wrongly convict an innocent man.

It is clear that our justice system finds innocent men guilty. Look no farther than the record in Illinois where under Gov Ryan, journalism students from Northwestern U found over 100 death row inmates were wrongly convicted of capital crimes WRONGLY CONVICTED. When the sentence is death, the state has failed to protect both the LIFE and the LIBERTY of innocent people.

Life in prison is an adequate safeguard for society and the lifelong loss of LIBERTY is an adequate penalty for capital crimes. The idea that a sentence provides sufficient revenge is unfortunately an American value but it has no place in a civilized society. There is no evidence the death penalty is a deterrent.

Where in the Constitution is the right to fillibuster spelled out?
It is not. The fillibuster is based on a Senate rule that can be changed at any time, and this in no way infringes on Free Speech... He can speak out all he wants, and no part of GOVT will shut him down, but that does not mean he can break the rules of the Senate.

Maybe Byrd is forgetting the basis of the Rights under the Constitution...

Execution is an easy way out for a murderer. Watch any prison movie and imagine being locked up like that, surrounded by horrible people. What better punishment than fearing for your life day in and day out. Plus it's a lot cheaper, too.

George Galloway MP: Elements Within Government Using Terror Provocation Tactics

Previously Mr Galloway has suggested that there is a very real danger of the government engineering a situation where terror attacks can be manufactured and seized upon to forward the pre-planned agenda abroad and at home. On Friday Mr Galloway elaborated on these comments

"I 've already mentioned this hideous character Richard Pearle. I saw him the other day actually snarling 'you're next', threatening people with American military power, a man who couldn't punch his own way out of a wet paper bag, but ready to fight to the last with other people's last drop of blood. These people make my blood boil and they ought to make every right thinking person feel that way. We deserve better than to be governed by these gangsters."

Mr Galloway went on to describe how it is always the elite draft dodging spoon-fed weaklings that strive for this kind of dominance over all, sacrificing the lives of others whilst swaggering around in their own bomber jackets playing up to the act.

Elton,

There is not a man (or woman) alive who is more familiar with the U.S. Constitution, and the Rules of the Senate, than Robert Byrd.

As the Rules of the Senate now stand, according to Rule 25.1.n:

(1) Committee on Rules and Administration, to which committee shall be referred all proposed legislation, messages, petitions, memorials, and other matters relating to the following subjects:

(B) Congressional organization relative to rules and procedures, and Senate rules and regulations, including floor and gallery rules.

So according to the Rules, to change the rule, one must first go to the Rules Committee.

Furthermore, as Sen. Byrd so eloquently pointed out, he will filibuster the attempt to change the rule.

Neither the constitution nor the senate rules require an Up or Down vote for judicial nominees.

Senate rules accommodate the filibuster.

The majority threatens to change the rules unless they don’¥ get something not provided for in the constitution or the Senate rules. The majority has no respect for the rules of the senate. The operative principle of the CURRENT majority is "The ends justify the means."

#67 "One thing that televising executions would definitely do is confirm to the rest of the world that Americans are bloodthirsty barbarians. The TV ratings would reinforce this view."

Much of the rest of the world already has that view of us -- no need for TV ratings to reinforce the view.

When Americans saw the first abuse/torture photos from Abu Ghraib, most of them were horrified to see what was going on in our name -- and they began to demand answers. They began to pay attention -- close attention. The photos disappeared from the "radar screen" and their horror dissipated right along with the disappearing photos.

I stand by my post yesterday regarding showing the horrors of bush's War of Choice in DYING COLOR -- I also take very seriously David Corn's words "But the obvious response is that government, in general, should not be engaged in conduct that cannot bear full exposure. We can make rare exceptions for, say, true national security secrets, but not for matters of taste."
__________
yelnats and kaff, from the previous thread: Your words, too, are apt and compelling.

#75 and #78 -- Hear, hear! (Here, here!)

Pop quiz:

By Evan Derkacz
December 13, 2005

It took Tylenol (a brand of acetaminophen) quite a while, and not a bit of money, to recover from the deaths from tampering a few years ago.

If you switched to aspirin, naproxen sodium, ibuprofen, cold compresses or drinking less you may have made a good choice.

Unadulterated (i.e. regular, not tampered-with) Acetaminophen turns out to be the leading cause of acute liver failure in the U.S.

Revere writes:

"This has been known for a few years, but the general public (and many health care providers) remain unaware of it. The 'therapeutic window' (the difference between a safe and harmful dose) is narrow and the drug is found in many different formulations (an estimated 200), often labeled non-aspirin pain relievers. Thus it is relatively easy to take several different over-the-counter and even prescription drugs (e.g., Percoset and Vicodin) that have acetaminophen in them and exceed the maximum recommended daily dose..."

This has been a public service message from Peek (via the knowledge base of Effect Measure).

Let us start with your 'justice be served' comment. Execution of a prisoner is never considered justice in most of the civilized world. Americans may just be a little behind the curve here, but as Martin Luther King Jr. observed, "Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." So let us start at the place where we determine that society has the right to remove dangerous individuals from the street, but not to execute them in cold blood. Robert Schwartz

Sounds nice... How are you going to vouch for their behavior? I will suppor this if you will vouch for their behavior, also, I dont want to foot the bill.

Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality. Robert Schwartz

Already done in the US, but GREED and HATE will still exist... More so as we take God and Religion out of the public eye.

And far better an infinite appeals process than an innocent executed. Robert Schwartz

No concern there, By definition they are not innocent, they have been found GUILTY.

Violence begets violence. Robert Schwartz

True, so when they do violence they should have violence done to them? or are you espousing the Wonderful (but totally impractical) belief that leads to: All required for EVIL to succeed is for Good People to do nothing.

Do you also believe in the absurd notion that WAR (violence) has never solved anything?

Filibuster and Cloture

19th Century Filibuster

Using the filibuster to delay or block legislative action has a long history. The term filibuster -- from a Dutch word meaning "pirate" -- became popular in the 1850s, when it was applied to efforts to hold the Senate floor in order to prevent a vote on a bill.

In the early years of Congress, representatives as well as senators could filibuster. As the House of Representatives grew in numbers, however, revisions to the House rules limited debate. In the smaller Senate, unlimited debate continued on the grounds that any senator should have the right to speak as long as necessary on any issue.

In 1841, when the Democratic minority hoped to block a bank bill promoted by Kentucky Senator Henry Clay, he threatened to change Senate rules to allow the majority to close debate. Missouri Senator Thomas Hart Benton rebuked Clay for trying to stifle the Senate's right to unlimited debate.

Three quarters of a century later, in 1917, senators adopted a rule (Rule 22), at the urging President Woodrow Wilson, that allowed the Senate to end a debate with a two-thirds majority vote, a device known as "cloture." The new Senate rule was first put to the test in 1919, when the Senate invoked cloture to end a filibuster against the Treaty of Versailles. Even with the new cloture rule, filibusters remained an effective means to block legislation, since a two-thirds vote is difficult to obtain. Over the next five decades, the Senate occasionally tried to invoke cloture, but usually failed to gain the necessary two-thirds vote. Filibusters were particularly useful to Southern senators who sought to block civil rights legislation, including anti-lynching legislation, until cloture was invoked after a fifty-seven day filibuster against the Civil Right Act of 1964. In 1975, the Senate reduced the number of votes required for cloture from two-thirds to three-fifths, or sixty of the current one hundred senators.

Many Americans are familiar with the filibuster conducted by Jimmy Stewart, playing Senator Jefferson Smith in Frank Capra's film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, but there have been some famous filibusters in the real-life Senate as well. During the 1930s, Senator Huey P. Long effectively used the filibuster against bills that he thought favored the rich over the poor. The Louisiana senator frustrated his colleagues while entertaining spectators with his recitations of Shakespeare and his reading of recipes for "pot-likkers." Long once held the Senate floor for fifteen hours. The record for the longest individual speech goes to South Carolina's J. Strom Thurmond who filibustered for 24 hours and 18 minutes against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

*****end of clip*****

A little background on the filibuster/cloture issue.

capt

THE CLEANED UP FOR GRAMMAR VERSION IN THE NEWSPAPERS:

"Frankly, it is probably part of my own fault for needling people, but it's a myth to think I don't know what's going on," Bush said. "And it's a myth to think that I'm not aware that there (are) opinions that don't agree with mine. Because I'm fully aware of that."
_____________________
THE ACTUAL VERSION OF WHAT HE SAID ON NBC NEWS:

“It’s a myth to think I don’t know what’s going on. And it’s a myth to think that I’m not aware that there is opinions that don’t agree with mine. Because I’m fully aware of that.” – President Bush, during an interview with NBC News.
________________
Dumbing down America, one dumbass president at a time....

thx Cap #86.

Tomgram: Dahr Jamail on the Missing Air War in Iraq

As 2004 ended, one TV journalist wrote me:

"My own experience of Iraq is that while we're all constantly aware of the air power, we're rarely nearby when it's deployed offensively. Perhaps that explains why we don't see it. One does ‘®ear' the airpower all the time though. Fighters and helicopters used to protect convoys; helis shipping people back and forth to bases, or hunting in packs across towns; AWACS high up. I've even watched drones making patterns in the sky. So why don't we film it?"

It's a question that still hasn't been answered -- or even asked in public.

*****end of clip*****

Seems to me the media are not doing their jobs by not reporting and showing the damage we inflict. If it is such and noble cause and we are doing the right thing the public will offer the same support they are now. Why would they not want to broadcast the bombing and fighting as it is all so glorious that we spread freedom and democracy from the air.

capt

Al Qaeda in Iraq?

Recently the theory of the Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein connection has been trotted out, once again, like a lame trick pony at the circus. Those who seek to advance this thoroughly discredited and unproven point are, once again, falsely claiming they have at last got the smoking gun. I presume they believe that if they repeat a lie often enough, it will become truth, a sort of arrogant "create your own reality".

But, as with so much of the other "proof" for our invasion of Iraq, it is nothing more than a string of allegations, accusations, rumors, deceitful juxtapositions, half truths and unproven theories all very short of anything remotely resembling evidence. Most of these allegations rely on unconfirmed meetings that allegedly took place between Iraqi officials and Al-Qaeda operatives. None of these allegations offer substantial proof, such as the actual exchange of WMD between the two parties or even the faintest symbol of tacit support from Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda operatives.

This oft repeated tactic, of throwing politically partisan handfuls of fairy dust in the air, labeling it proof positive and then smugly proclaiming "case closed" has become rather shopworn. These arguments, devoid of critical analysis, study or review should serve only to discredit those who offer such faux logic, as well as those who deceive themselves into believing that this in some way is a reasonable substitute for supporting ones case with hard facts. Fantastically, those who would dare to challenge these outright lies and disinformation with the truth are accused of re-writing history, as though the partisan self-serving statements of politicians not only create their own reality but serve as the official account of our nation.

*****end of clip*****

Baathism and Al Qaeda fundamentalism are radically opposed to one another.

capt

Elton,

Let me start by congratulating you. You appear able to carry on a conversation without resorting to personal insult. This is a rarity around here, amongst those who post contrary views.

Sounds nice... How are you going to vouch for their behavior? I will suppor this if you will vouch for their behavior, also, I dont want to foot the bill.

I have no responsibility to vouch for anyone's behavior but my own. Society has the right to deprive the offender of liberty, why should I need to personally vouch for anyone else? Don't want to foot the bill? We can argue about priorities, but do you accept that collective security requires financing?

Already done in the US, (Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality.) but GREED and HATE will still exist... More so as we take God and Religion out of the public eye.

THAT's a laugh, as Katrina has so powerfully illustrated. Also, many of the bible-thumpers appear to this agnostic to be the the greediest bastards around, not to mention the quickest to vengence.

No concern there, By definition they are not innocent, they have been found GUILTY.

Presumes the infallibility of our Judicial System, if you are concerned, at all, about the actual guilt of the individual, rather than the defined pronouncement of an human endeavor.

Do you also believe in the absurd notion that WAR (violence) has never solved anything?

Define 'solved.' It has certainly led to the horrific conditions exhibited in much of the world. It is a condition that deserves transcending. To remove the scourge of war is the raison d'etre of the United Nations.

#64 Goob said... Locking them up forever is a costly affair, and killing them is obviously wrong.

You summed it up well my friend. It's such a troubling subject, and people are pulled in all directions on it. Killing is wrong, but life in prison w/o parole is a tough alternative too. The costs of confining people with that sentence are huge. It has to be super secure for one thing because these are people with no hope. Think about it. whatcha gonna do, put me in prison? ha? They have no reason to obey any orders, no punishment worse than they already have to encourage good behavior. These are the worst of the worst and have to be literally walled off from the general prison population and each other...and little if any contact with guards. Kill a guard that he don't like... why not, ain't nuttin they can do to me for it! See what I mean? Some people calling for this alternative senctence to the death penalty don't always think of the big picture. A life sentence with even a slight chance of parole is still better than 'no parole', in my opinion. There's been innocent people executed so deterrent or not, my opinion is... it's wrong. What's the answer? That's a hard mo/fo to figure out, but we need to do something.
*dang, I wish we had a better topic

here is an attack piece on david corn

A Mole In The Progressive Movement?

I will point out that mole or not, whether corn agrees with my views or not, he has not prohibited me from continuing to post my opinions about 911 being an inside job.

click my name to order the FREE DVD:
'CONFRONTING THE EVIDENCE: Reopen 911'

Class act James.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. People who are hard wired (like Bundy, who escaped twice and killed a 12 yr. old girl while escaped)really need to go. It those cases, the death penalty is a deterrent in that the particular individual won't have the opportunity to kill again. Dangerous serial killers? Child killers? bye-bye.

One of the problems is the unfairness of the system. Cold killers (O.J.) who can afford good lawyers get off scott free while most on death row had public defenders. My favorite movie about the topic: "Dead Man Walking"

HI 2 ALL!!

I'm against the Death Penalty for many reasons; Dallas County(TX) sentenced Randall Dale Adams(70's) and Joyce Ann Brown(80's) to die, but their convictions were overturned and were set free. Clarence Brantley was also sentenced to death in the Houston/Conroe area. Sentence was overturned and Brantley was set free.

I've known personally, over 50 people who were murdered in my 43yrs on earth. Friends like Charlie Jones III, Fred Monk, Gene Tutt, James&Marcus Brooks, Charles Specks, Barbara Strong, Renee Parker, Monotya Wells, Millard"Choc"Davis, and many others, and I'm still anti-Death Penalty, because you can never say that the right person is excecuted every time. There are some procecutors who withold evidence just to fortify their conviction rates&records, so when one decides to run for public office, they can say, "Look at my conviction rate, it's 92%. I'm tough on crime"

On Democracy Now, Houston Chronicle reporter Lise Olson wrote a series of articles about the case of Ruben Cantu, from San Antonio who was sentenced to death for alledged murder-robbery at 17yrs old, and excecuted in 1993 at age 26. Cantu may have been innocent after all.

Life Without Parole should be the maxiumum sentence. Inmates should do hard labor, build the prisons, grow their own food. No watching t.v. and playing cards in the dayroom all day. This could cut costs a lot.

Also, the mentally ill shouldn't be placed in prisons with the General Population. State mental hospital funding has been drastically reduced. Many mentally ill persons could be housed in those facillities as in the past, but prison construction, privately-owned prison units, and food service contract kickbacks are "The New Thing". Unfortunately, the prison-industrial complex keeps on going and going... They say, "to hell with teen crime prevention programs,drug treatment centers, and community service programs for Class B and C Misdemeanors that keeps jails from overcrowding with people who commit petty crime.Gotta keep that recidivism rate high so all of my homeboys can get some contracts&kickbacks"!

The Death Penalty hasn't been a deterrent to crime at all.

That's how I feel, you dig?

ha~salute

That's MONTOYA WELLS. Sorry my brother!!

I too think the quality of the discussions, especially disagreements, have improved. Let's keep it up!

The Economics of Capital Punishment

Contention:
Sentencing a prisoner to life in prison is a better allocation of resources than sentencing him to be executed.

First I'll present figures representing the dollar costs of capital punishment versus life in prison/no parole. Then I'll discuss the deterrent effect as the only legitimate rational justification for capital punishment. Then I'll discuss the externalities of capital punishment.

*****end of clip*****

"Locking them up forever is a costly affair"

It costs us more to execute than to warehouse the "lifers."

The highest cost to the penal system is from non-violent offenders sentenced by "mandatory minimums."

Murdering the murderers is flawed logic and circular if all are held to account. Why should the state commit a crime to punish a crime?

I agree with Carol "Execution is an easy way out for a murderer."

The Kkkristo-fascists should consider the death penalty as ending the righteous punishment here on earth to send any repentant to heaven. Seems like more a gift.

capt

A time will come when a politician who has willfully made war and promoted international dissension will be as sure of the dock and much surer of the noose than a private homicide. It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not stake their own: H.G. Wells

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Don't ever let them pull you down so low as to hate them. (also cited as: I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him.) Booker T. Washington

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The soul of our country needs to be awakened . . .When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders: Veterans Fast for Life

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If we work in marble, it will perish; if we work upon brass, time will efface it; if we rear temples, they will crumble into dust; but if we work upon immortal minds and instill into them just principles, we are then engraving upon tablets which no time will efface, but will brighten and brighten to all eternity: Daniel Webster

===

Thanks ICH newsletter!

Robert Schwartz,

Thank you... I enjoy the discourse and try not to slander too much... I have truly been enjoying this discussion (even as my BP soars).

I would agree that you bear no responsibility at present, but all of society bears this burden/cost. If you want my support then my cost/burden must be alleviated, hence someone must be willing to insure these people behave if they are allowed to remainin our society. Even locked up they are a pary of society and can impact it. I will accept that collective security requires financing, but will minimize the cost in some areas so that more resources are available to others. Locking up murders is lowest on my priority list.

So, after Katrina what? GOVT failed at all levels, but where were the individuals and community leaders. They sat back and waited where they should have seen to their own safety. Most thought there was little danger, and that was their choice. Dont wait on others to take care of your family... That is each parents responsibility.
I will agree about the BIBLE thumpers, but they are not GOD, and do not inspire morals and proper behavior.

No, they have been found guilty buy a court of LAW, and by definition this is the basis of GUILT/JUSTICE. I never said the system was infalliable, but it is the best there is in the world. IN A YEAR: If 1 innocent person were put to death by the state it would be a terrible thing. If NONE were put to death by the state and 6 people were murdered by those that should have died, which is worse? I would prefer 6 alive over 5 alive... No system is perfect but there are consequences on both sides. I believe that few if any innocent people would be executed by our justice system, where as many/most murder victims are innocent.

The UN is a huge failure. Disolve it now.

War is terrible, but it is the only way to stop agressors and to stop intollerable behavior.

sup Bro Tex?!!!

On Democracy Now, Houston Chronicle reporter Lise Olson wrote a series of articles about the case of Ruben Cantu, from San Antonio who was sentenced to death for alledged murder-robbery at 17yrs old, and excecuted in 1993 at age 26. Cantu may have been innocent after all.

Yep, that case has been in the news here alot lately. The only evidence against him was the eyewitness testimony of the other victim that didn't die. Cantu had evidence that he was back in San Antonio that day, but the jury believed the survivor. Turns out that survivor now says he was coerced into that testimony. Seems he was an illegal alien and din't wanna be sent back to Mexico. The detectives held that threat over him and continued to give him chances to pick the 'right' suspect from photo lineups. Guess who's picture was the only one in each lineup?
Detectives wanted Cantu because he wounded an off-duty/civilian clothed policeman in a pool hall argument. Those can be and are tough places to hang out, and shyt happens, but he didn't know it was a cop and it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. If challenged, or called out, you respond... or run like hell. Machismo and street cred tend to make that last option obsolete if you wanna 'have respect' in the 'hood. It's all fk'd up maaaan. Cantu's 'fall partner' didn't go to bat for him either. Shyt man, let them execute him and I'll get off with just a prison sentence. So what if he's innocent, it helps me!
Now,after all those years, the wounded survivor speaks out, that he didn't think it was Cantu that shot him and killed his friend!
Cantu, locked up at 17 for a crime he didn't commit,and executed 9 years later.
Texans and their thoughts... oh well, we'll try better next time. yeah right!

# 102 "So, after Katrina what? Govt. failed at all levels, but where were the individuals and community leaders"?

You apparently missed Charmaine Neville's compelling and hair raising story about rescuing elderly people (via boat) trapped in their homes, stealing a bus, driving them to safety, all the while fighting with rapists and thugs. There are hundreds of stories about community leaders and individuals who demonstrated bravery and heroism. Why do you and others continue to blame Katrina victims for their plight? Total lack of compassion.

Bro.tex,

I dig!

Do not be such a stranger.

Great post BTW!

Best to all

capt

Nice comments BROTEX,

The Death Penalty is a deterrent when done in a timely fashion. 10 years after the fact is too far detached. Needs to be carried out within a year of conviction.

You can never be sure you have the right guy... but you can never be sure. Should we quit trying? The time they loose when locked up incorrectly can never be replaced, just like their life cannot be restored. Would you advocte NO punnishment?

The people you quoted as being set free, I am not familiar with their cases... Were the real perps caught or were they released on technicalities like witnessed died or could not remember small facts 10 or 15 years after the fact?

One person said: "Why should the state commit a crime to punish a crime?"
What would this individual advise. It is also a crime to hold a person against their will. Would we not even bother to lock up crimminals.

Another claims it cost more to Put a Crimminal to death than to lock them up for life. I disagree. It only cost a few dollars to execute a person: poison, a rope, a knife, a club have all been used in past history for a cost of next to nothing. The cost is in all the safeguards we place aroud it to help keep a innocent from being executed. By streamlining this process we can greatly reduce the cost.

A fascinating discussion which, like most, can be resolved by a Heinlein quote to wit...

"It may be necessary to kill a man, but to incarcerate him destroys both his dignity and yours."

"War is terrible, but it is the only way to stop aggressors and to stop intolerable behavior."

Um. . . er . . we are the aggressor in Iraq.

The UN is a world body created as a forum to resolve differences between nations without going to war.

War is never the answer unless the question is "how can we kill a bunch of people?"

War is the result of failed diplomacy not an extension of successful diplomacy.

"One is left with the horrible feeling now that war settles nothing; that to win a war is as disastrous as to lose one. " ~ Agatha Christie (1890 - 1976), Autobiography (1977)

capt

I watched a prison movie just the other night. Three black guys sentenced to prison because their prints were on a gun used in a hold up. What was that quote, Capt? You can judge a nation by it's prisons? Well, that quote is quite accurate.

Elton, you better hope you never get framed, is all I can say. Ever peered out from behind the bars of a cell? ... depending on others to 'make things right'? I bet you wouldn't be in such a hurry to dismiss the safeguards.

From the link at #100:

Punishment, except when used in the context of rehabilitation, is nothing more than revenge. Wrongdoers accept punishment as a requirement for rehabilitation into society. For those who pose a danger to society and are not candidates for rehabilitation, as would be the prudent view of murderers, some type of confined exile would be the appropriate rational course. For example, for the act of first degree murder, I would not argue with society's right to exile an individual for life in solitary confinement. This action would accomplish the goal of protecting society, as well as lessening the dollar cost and the numerous negative externalities of the present capital punishment system.

Regarding the controversy over deterrence; one might reasonably infer that capital punishment might, depending on the state of society at the moment, have a deterrent effect, have a brutalization effect, have no effect, or have a retaliatory effect. For example in a totalitarian regime, killing a police officer may be viewed by those that oppose the regime, as being a necessary act. To execute the perpetrator of this act may induce others with similar views to retaliate with like action.

The death penalty is not a good act. No one could watch an execution and say, "this is a good thing". And, as I have shown, it is not a necessary thing.

So what is it?

It's just pure vindictiveness on the part of an irrational mob. It's the action of a hypocritical egotistical social paradigm that perceives its value system as the absolute authority in determining justice in the universe. It's a system whose actions conclude that "might makes right".

If you think that the gang of state strapping a woman down to a table and injecting poison into her veins isn't an evil act, then you, your God and your entire belief system are crap. If this is not evil in your social paradigm, then your society is crap.

The gang of state executed Jesus Christ.
The gang of state executed 5 million Jews.
The gang of state virtually exterminated the native American.

On and on and on...

The abuses of power, by the gang of state, are innumerable and indescribably heinous in their abuse of humanity.

And, you continue to enable this abuse...

Sir, when you said "War is never the answer

Would it follow then that you would feel comfortable dissolving the military a'la Costa Rica?

www.democrats.org/alitoletter

Here are the facts. When Alito was nominated for his present job on the Court of Appeals, he made a pledge to the U.S. Senate that he would recuse himself from cases where he had a personal interest. On multiple occasions Alito has broken that pledge.

He broke his pledge in 1995 when he ruled on a case that involved his sister's law firm. And he broke his pledge in 2002 when he ruled on a case involving an investment firm where he had a six-figure personal investment.

Still more disturbing has been the series of shifting excuses for these serious ethical lapses. In the case of the investment firm, Alito's sponsors in the White House first claimed that a computer glitch failed to alert Judge Alito of the conflict. When that excuse began to be scrutinized, the explanation suddenly shifted, with administration officials arguing on his behalf that Alito didn't need to recuse himself after all.

Americans deserve a Supreme Court Justice who doesn't need a computer to tell the difference between right and wrong.

You can make sure that your local paper covers these lapses and gives Alito's credibility a serious examination by writing a letter to the editor:

And it does not stop there. On a job application for a position in the Reagan administration, Alito pointed to his membership in an organization known as the Concerned Alumni of Princeton. During his time at Princeton and when he was still promoting his membership over a decade later, this group made its name fighting integration of women and minorities on campus.

While his job application clearly points out his membership in this organization, he has now reversed course -- his response to questions from Senators last month was, "I have no recollection of being a member or attending meetings."

A person seeking a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court must be upfront and honest with the Senate -- and with the American people.

Samuel Alito has a lot to answer for -- and your letter right now can set the stage for his hearings and ensure that the American people finally get the truth:

Thank you,

Tom McMahon
Executive Director
Democratic National Committee

P.S. -- Last Friday I wrote to you about a sickening video the Republican National Committee put up on its web site. In response, ordinary people across the country raised over $100,000 for the Democratic Party over the weekend -- taking their attack and turning it into a Democratic victory. Meanwhile, Republicans and Democrats on the Sunday political shows called on the RNC to remove the video from its web site. Thank you for getting the word out.

"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky (1821 - 1881)

Is that the right one?

capt

Forward John Murtha's Call for Debate to Your Friends and Family

Hours after we launched this petition, the Republicans aired another example of their smear political stunts. From the beginning, Republicans have substituted divisive, over-the-line political attacks for substantive policy in Iraq. The campaign to sell America on war was carefully planned and brilliantly executed -- but it was clear that they had literally been too busy with the sales pitch to plan for the peace.

Last week President Bush released what he called a "Strategy for Victory in Iraq." Days later, we found out that it had been written by a pollster. Another few days after that we learned where the real Republican focus was -- they released a web ad so scurrilous that even a Republican Senator said they should take it down.

With a full-scale media blitz, the Republican National Committee released their "White Flag" campaign, attempting to smear Democrats like John Murtha as unpatriotic, undermining our troops and advocating "surrender." This is their substitute for real debate. The DCCC has put together a video to counterpunch their continued personal attacks. Attacking Democrats is not a plan for success in Iraq. You can watch the DCCC video when you forward the petition to a friend. Watch the video, then tell them to get their attention back on finding a real solution to the problems in Iraq:

Forward John Murtha's Call for Debate to Your Friends and Family

For more than 1,000 days of war, the Republican Congress has counted itself out. There has been no oversight of the White House, and no serious debate on our future in Iraq.

This cannot go on -- the stakes are too high. We will deliver your name, along with tens of thousands of others, to the Speaker of the House before Congress goes home for recess. Please take a moment to watch the new video from the DCCC and to sign on to John Murtha's call for an honest debate:

Forward John Murtha's Call for Debate to Your Friends and Family

Sincerely,

John Lapp
Executive Director, DCCC

PS: We must show this Republican Congress how many Americans support John Murtha.

Capt, I think that was the one. Thanks.

Let's ask David for threaded comments and comments as an RSS feed.

"Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more must you have of the former. " ~ Horace Mann (1796 - 1859)

"Eventually, there will not be enough prisons if there are not enough good homes. " ~ Neal A. Maxwell

"I should wish to see a world in which education aimed at mental freedom rather than imprisoning the minds of the young in a rigid armor of dogma calculated to protect them though life against the shafts of impartial evidence. " ~ Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970), "Why I am Not a Christian"

******

Freedom and liberty are suppose to be the most precious of precepts. So much so we willing enter our military forces to defend our freedom or to protect and promote freedom in foreign nations.

We send our brave and best knowing full well some will die. If freedom is important enough to die for it is the most precious thing to take from a convicted criminal. Not their life, too many have died to protect freedom.

Take their freedom and make sure they know it everyday until they die of old age. To put them down, to kill them is not only uncivilized and draconian but it discounts the greatest punishment society can exact, taking their freedom. If freedom is worth dying for by many then freedom is worth many lives. Let a higher power (fate, God, Thor, your black dog) work on the criminal - some might need a lifetime without freedom. (assuming they are guilty)

IMHO

capt

#118 Seems somewhat at odds with your earlier statement that war never solved anything. Am I missing something?

#85, Elton "Already done in the US, but GREED and HATE will still exist... More so as we take God and Religion out of the public eye."

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but greed and hatred exists, among those who live their lives in the name of God and Religion. Popes in the Middle Ages tortured and went to war against their opponents, all for land and power. Look at the Televangelists and how much they are fleecing their "flocks" so they can get rich and powerful. The KKKristians hate those who are different from them (gays, blacks, hispanics and those of any other religion) and want to turn this nation into a Christian Theocracy. Pat Robertson supported the assasination of Hugo Chavez.

Don't tell me that having God and Religion in the public eye is some sort of immunity against greed and hatred. I would say it insights greed and hatred.

Kaff, it is interesting that you mention Sister Helen Prejean's "Dead Man Walking." She has also written a book, "The Death of Innocents: An Eyewitness Account of Wrongful Executions," in which she makes a powerful case against capital punishment -- she shows "the system" kills innocent people.

I do not know the guilt or innocence of Tookie Williams, but others who are close to him, and personally familiar with his work, bear witness to what they say is a fact -- his "redemption."

It makes me cringe that fallible men, claiming to be compassionate Christians, can so easily sign a paper that authorizes putting another person to death, using poison bought with my money, taking their breath away, paralyzing their lungs, and knocking the life out of their beating hearts.

When the United States joins most of the civilized world and bans all state-sponsored executions, we won't have governors -- Christian men, like GWB and Arnold -- who are so willing to put others to death, undoubtedly with an eye to political cover. President George W. Bush professes to be a born-again Christian who signed 152 death warrants as Texas governor -- one of the most publicized death warrants was for Karla Fay Tucker. When he explained his decision to sign her death warrant, he ended his remarks by saying, "God bless Karla Fay Tucker." Huh?

Then there is Antonin Scalia who claims that the government is "anointed by God" to carry out the death penalty.

Says who?

14-Day Plan Improves Memory

By Robert Roy Britt
LiveScience Managing Editor
posted: 13 December 2005

It sounds like an infomercial from late-night TV: Follow this four-step plan and improve your memory in just 14 days!

But researchers have indeed found a way to improve memory function in older people. After a two-week study that involved brainteasers, exercise and diet changes, study participants' memories worked more efficiently.

Here's the program:

Memory Training: Brainteasers, crossword puzzles and memory exercises that emphasized verbal skills throughout the day.

Healthy Diet: Five meals daily included a balanced diet rich in omega-3 fats, whole grains and antioxidants. Eating frequent meals prevents dips in blood glucose, the primary energy source for the brain.

Physical Fitness: Brisk daily walks and stretching. Physical fitness has been found in other research to reduce the risk of Alzheimer's disease.

Stress Reduction: Stretching and relaxation exercises. Stress causes the body to release cortisol, which can impair memory and has been found to shrink the memory centers in the brain.

Before-and-after brain scans showed the participants experienced on average a five percent decrease in brain metabolism in the dorsal lateral prefrontal region of the brain, which is directly linked to working memory and other cognitive functions. This suggests they were using their brains more efficiently. The subjects also performed better on a cognitive test.

*****end of clip*****

No surprises, but I thought that "Brainteasers" were a given for people with poor memory. Trust me, I know. Now where did I put that . . .

capt

...meanwhile four more U.S. troops were killed today in bush's War of Choice in Iraq.

One could say bush, in effect, signed their death warrants by starting this unnecessary war.

Death Penalty Focus
870 Market St. Ste. 859
San Francisco, CA 94102
Tel. 415-243-0143 - Fax 415-243-0994 - www.deathpenalty.org

Dear Friends,

Thank you to all of you who took time to write, call, fax and email the Governor to ask for clemency for Stanley Williams and for a halt to all executions in California. We are especially grateful to all of you who attended vigils, rallies, and press conferences throughout the last several months.

We are saddened and outraged by the fact that state of California has taken yet another life, but we are encouraged by your support, courage and continued efforts to stop the barbaric practice of state-sanctioned murder. Here in California we are at a tipping point, more and more Californians are questioning whether the execution of Stanley Williams has made us any safer and whether the death penalty serves any purpose at all. Now is the time to tell our elected representatives that a temporary suspension of executions in California is urgently needed. We must encourage them to support the "California Moratorium on Executions Act" (AB 1121), which would halt all executions while the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice is investigating the problem of wrongful conviction and the administration of the death penalty in California.

AB1121 will be voted on in January, so please send letters of support to you Assembly representatives immediately. To send a letter

Please also encourage your place of worship, union, organization or group to send a letter supporting AB1121. for more information

Two more executions are scheduled to occur in California in the next two months (Clarence Ray Allen on Jan. 17th and Michael Morales on Feb 21st). Please help us tell the legislature and the Governor that temporarily suspending executions in California is the prudent and reasonable action to take while a bi-partisan commission is tasked with the responsibility of making sure California's criminal justice is just, fair and accurate.

Thank you again for being part of this historic effort to end state-sanctioned killing.

In struggle,

Stefanie Faucher
Death Penalty Focus

The Defence of Life in the Context of International Policies and Norms
by H. E. Mons. Jean-Louis Tauran
February 11, 2000

The position adopted by Evangelium Vitae(39) has also drawn attention on the international level. As is known, the Encyclical states that it should never come to “the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society”. It likewise points out that “today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent”.(56)
Evangelium Vitae
It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.
In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person." (48)
DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE
TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS
ON THE DEATH PENALTY
The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty and his Holiness Pope John Paul II has personally and indiscriminately appealed on numerous occasions in order that such sentences should be commuted to a lesser punishment, which may offer time and incentive for the reform of the guilty, hope to the innocent and safeguard the well-being of civil society itself and of those individuals who through no choice of theirs have become deeply involved in the fate of those condemmed to death.
The Pope had most earnestly hoped and prayed that a worldwide moratorium might have been among the spiritual and moral benefits of the Great Jubilee which he proclaimed for the Year Two Thousand, so that dawn of the Third Millennium would have been remembered forever as the pivotal moment in history when the community of nations finally recognised that it now possesses the means to defend itself without recourse to punishments which are "cruel and unnecessary". This hope remains strong but it is unfulfilled, and yet there is encouragement in the growing awareness that "it is time to abolish the death penalty".
It is surely more necessary than ever that the inalienable dignity of human life be universally respected and recognised for its immeasurable value. The Holy See has engaged itself in the pursuit of the abolition of capital punishment and an integral part of the defence of human life at every stage of its development and does so in defiance of any assertion of a culture of death.
Where the death penalty is a sign of desperation, civil society is invited to assert its belief in a justice that salvages hope from the ruin of the evils which stalk our world. The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity.
Strasbourg, 21 June 2001.

Difficult Civic Responsibilities?
Christians should oppose the use of the death penalty. While acknowledging that "Catholic teaching has accepted the principle that the state has the right to take the life of a person guilty of an extremely serious crime," the bishops of the United States hold that "there are serious considerations which should prompt Christians and all Americans to support the abolition of capital punishment."*102 Among these considerations, the bishops explain, are certain values:
We maintain that abolition of the death penalty would promote values that are important to us as citizens and as Christians. First, abolition sends a message that we can break the cycle of violence, that we need not take life for life, that we can envisage more humane and more hopeful and effective responses to the growth of violent crime. . . .
Second, abolition of capital punishment is also a manifestation of our belief in the unique worth and dignity of each person from the moment of conception, a creature made in the image and likeness of God. . . .
Third, abolition of the death penalty is further testimony to our conviction, a conviction which we share with the Judaic and Islamic traditions, that God is indeed the Lord of life. It is a testimony which removes a certain ambiguity which might otherwise affect the witness that we wish to give to the sanctity of human life in all its stages. . . .
Fourth, we believe that abolition of the death penalty is most consonant with the example of Jesus, who both taught and practiced the forgiveness of injustice and who came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mk 10.45).*103

There's no such thing as a free lunch - Robert Heinlein

The universe is the ultimate free lunch - Steven Hawking

*******

I'm a fan, but ole Bob got some stuff wrong...

Stanley Williams is dead. I can't help feeling the uselessness of the final act. Did redemption mean nothing to society? Did his contributions to society mean nothing? Some would argue that the execution was a sentence carried out. I argue that it is our society giving no hope to those who redeem themselves, who somehow find their souls. The hope that Tookie brought to others that they might find dignity and redemptions behind bars was replaced by sorrow. He tried to become a better man. He succeeded.

The UN is a huge failure. Dis[s]olve it now. Elton

The UN is an imperfect, but necessary institution. The technologies of war have gotten to the point where planetary destruction is a physical possibilty. And the agencies of the UN accomplish far more than they are given credit for. (WHO, UNESCO,UNICEF, etc)

War is terrible, but it is the only way to stop ag[g]ressors and to stop intol[l]erable behavior.

No, it isn't. Removing the profit margin from weapons would go a huge way towards peaceful tomorrows, as would increasing meditation practices.

"...the inexplicable fear of mercy that ravages our nation, as it busily wears Christian values on its sleeve, nowhere near its unhealed heart."

Perfectly said!

There are certain things that the guys we elect to run the government should do for the good of all and shouldn't have people vote on. Abortion is one and gay unions another. Explosive, emotional issues shouldn't be left to the ignorant, unwashed masses to decide. Yet they'll let us vote on issues like that and not, let's say, their pay raises, or should we invade Iraq.

Abortion - should be legal because the alternatives aren't good for society. It will still occur whether it's legal or not and children will be born to people that won't want them. Abortion cannot be eradicated like smallpox or polio. Leave it to the heathens among us to criminalize it. It's totally unrealistic and that's where cooler minds should rule. Like say the judges during Roe v. Wade. Ya gotta appreciate the sensibility that bunch showed. It's sure absent now. (remember 2000?)

Gay unions - it amazed me that such a question was put on the ballots of many states, including here in Michigan. Of all the things to put before the people; do you want a gay couple to continue to receive benefits from their employer? That is in effect what they asked in Michigan. The question of whether to punish gay people should NEVER have been asked. One would expect laws made for the good of all be taken care of at the top where supposedly intelligent, far-seeing people work. (we know THAT'S horseshit now)

Death penalty - we don't have it here in Michigan but there is always talk about putting it on the ballot. That would be a horrible mistake. Thus far it hasn't made it to the ballot, but it's probably only a matter of time. And just let me say that anyone that professes to believe in God AND the death penalty is insane. Exactly which god are they following, Thor? I can't imagine someone going to church every Sunday, worrying about what their kids see on TV then condoning the murder of a man on death row. WWJD?

That said, I think I've learned a lot about human nature the last 5 years. For one thing, the people at the top are as low life as the most ignorant, unwashed man in a prison. The only difference is that they have money and power. I'd like to think that there is someone out there waiting in the wings, perhaps another Martin Luther King, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. As it stands, I think we're pretty much doomed. We're surrounded by evil men with money and power and the people-power out here is helpless because it doesn't have a leader. The internet is alive with blogs like this and columnists up the whazoo but until someone comes along to unite that to the sleeping masses we're going to stay doomed, at least for the rest of my life.

And on THAT cheerful note..................

Micki # 141- You forgot the part where "W" publicly mocked the way Carla Fay Tucker begged him to spare her life. GAWD!

What makes me cringe is wondering what the last few hours of Samantha Runion's (age 5) life must have been like at the hands of Carlos Brusha (?). There have been hundreds like her too. I just don't have black/white thinking about the death penalty. It seems appropriate in some cases.

THE LAST WALL OF THE CASTLE
(Jorma Kaukonen)

Gone swirling tears came she went today;
Down Fallen years go by,
No place in learning how to cry; I went astray;
Understanding is a virtue, hard to come by
You can teach me how to love
If you'll only try; So please!
Don't give up so soon.

Sorry that I hurt her I went astray;
Hurt her mind and broke her heart
But there's no stopping once you start; she went away;
Understanding is a virtue, hard to come by
You can teach me how to love
If you'll only try; So please!
Don't give up so soon.

I never knew you the way you are;
The Blinded bird is not sincere,
His flying's done from only fear, he's lost his star;
Understanding is a virtue, hard to come by
You can teach me how to love
If you'll only try; So please!
Don't give up so soon.

Robert

He got far more hits than strikes. One of the more underrated philosophers.

#130

"emotional issues shouldn't be left to the ignorant, unwashed masses to decide"

I am trying to decide if that is the most frightening post I have read in a while or the most astute.

#96 bro.tex is right. Capital punishment will not end the killing. kaff makes a good point regarding Bundy.

What I fear is the tainted evidence that may have been planted by law enforcement agents. I also fear how the wealthy can get off from their crimes with high price lawyers.

If you have watched the nightly news, you should be aware that people who oppose the Iraq war are being investigated by Pentagon operatives. I may be at the top of the Pentagon list.

Great quote! Please name the source! The inexplicable fear of mercy ravages our nation, as it busily wears Christians values on its sleeve, nowhere near its unhealed heart.

My spiritual advisor said to me, "Why worry about the sliver in my eye if I have lumber in my heart."

American Soldiers

2,397 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan for Bush's evil lies.

16,000+ American soldiers have been maimed in Iraq and Afghanistan for Bush's evil lies.

40,000+ American soldiers are suffering from PTSD.

Over 100,000+ Iraqis have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared shock and awe bombings on March 19, 2003.

Are you feeling more safe and secure with Bush in the WH and Cheney as his chief hatchet man overseeing America and her people.

American elections are rigged to favor the repugnants.

We will have to see how events play out. Seymour Hersh (when he was asked to comment about the 2004 election)

Bush will declare martial law in 2008 and the elections will be suspended.

Our military men and women are used as cannon fodder for a terrorist American government.

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. George W. Bush, August 5, 2005

THE GLORY OF BUSH IS MAN FULLY DEAD!!!

This war in Iraq really pisses me off!!!!!

Rigged elections doom American democracy. American soldiers are being killed and maimed TO PROMOTE AN AMERICAN NAZI STATE.

THE GLORY OF GOD IS MAN FULLY ALIVE. St. Irenaeus

I shall pass this way but once. Any good that I can do let me do it now for I shall not pass this way again. St. Ambrose

We must work tirelessly for man to be fully alive.

Elton 55, that description applies to Israel, currently in violation of over 60 UN resolutions. So, when will bushco start bombing them? Oh yeh, I forgot, they don't have any oil, but that will soon change!
goob 64, how about giving them their own island and letting Darwin sort it out?!
micki, I personally think the idea of televising executions is disgusting. I could just see it being the next big "real TV" rage. Pretty soon they would need more people to execute. I can imagine it turning into that awful "Running Man" show! Watching the two movies I mentioned was enough for me.
kaff, have you seen "The Life of David Gale?" If not I highly recommend it. Kevin Spacey is outstanding as the murderer facing the death penalty, the twist is unbelievable, but you have to watch it to the very last second.
Elton 102, the powers that be have no intention of dissolving the UN. This is not a left or right issue. The UN is the tool to be wielded against the entire planet, and not by the US. You may laugh, but you will see.

Yet More Evidence

So let me get this straight...

The bush administration directed US officials to render prisoners (or simply shanghai them to secret and highly illegal) eastern European prison/torture camps, got busted by human rights watch groups following the flight logs, lied about the activities while scurrying like cockroaches to cover their asses by spiriting the prisoners away under the cover of the denials...

THEN

...has the arrogance to trot out the next sacrificial lamb with some semblance of a reputation (Condi Rice) onto the world stage (the first being Colin Powell...and I can't wait until he
spills about the chimp administration) to deny, deny, deny that the US doesn't [currently] send suspected terrorists to Eastern European prisons for softening up. And under no degree of questioning by the foreign press would she extend that statement to the past...Hmmmmmm....

All the while our vice-preznit is doing his best imitation of Tom Delay strong-arming (I mean "shoring up") the conservative vote to try and change domestic law to allow torture at the hands of American officials, while at the same time claiming vociferously that we could never, ever do such a thing (double-secret pinky swear!).

And we wonder why the world hates us and our allies don't trust us further than they can spit?

[SIGH] We tried to warn them in 2000 and again in 2004. But too many Americans couldn't disengage from the "WDM", "9/11" and "patriotism" chaff being tossed about like festive confetti by this prevaricating administration.

The investigator told reporters he could not offer proof that secret detention centers existed

Broadcasting someone's death penalty is disgusting. But, what can we expect from a disgusting nation like America?

As you may recall, I pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy every day for my family and me and for anyone who is in need of a Chaplet. The Chaplet is so powerful that even the most harden criminal will be saved if a Chaplet is offered for them. Maybe, just maybe, my Chaplet helped Tookie as he went before God in Final Judgment.

My wife is busy making cookies for a cookie exchange for the annual cookie exchange with her baba friends. She makes around 120 cookies. 72 (12 each for 6 ladies) and about 48 for the family! Who in the world needs 120 cookies around them during the Christmas holidays? It's obscene!

#137 I think it's disgusting, too, but I can't argue against doing it because there's a SLIGHT (very slight) chance that it'd have a positive result -- people would be disgusted with what GOVERNMENT does to other humans by sanctioning state-sponsored death and demand some changes.

On the other hand, I wonder how many people would watch it...I certainly wouldn't. (I hate it when people rubberneck an accident on the highway, some hoping to see disaster.)

What you said: "I personally think the idea of televising executions is disgusting. I could just see it being the next big "real TV" rage. Pretty soon they would need more people to execute"...is quite an indictment of American "values."

Saladin, you could be right. That could happen in this country. Lots of blood-thirsty family values' TV viewers would plan their viewing schedule around the next BIG execution. Instead of Monday Night Football, they'd watch Monday Night Executions. Yup, we are a sicko country -- wars and DU and torture and killing innocent people with darker skin just dosen't give us the thrill we need to satisfy our lust for gore.

I have always thought that televising executions would be something americans might like.....all we need to do is get some lions and a coliseum and americans would be set.

This would confirm once and for all to the world just how truely sick we are, if the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq has not done the trick.

The Republicans might want to use it as a fund raiser.

#10 Robert..The question is.. what is the Bush Administrations definition of victory? Iran and Syria too? That is what the neo-cons plans include.

#60 Robert..Fitzgerald's noose is tightening..I just hope Cheney's neck is in there with Rove's.

Senator Byrd is well worth a trip to Washington D.C. for. I have been in the Senate several times when he is cutting loose. It is a sight to behold. This guy has made some serious mistakes, but he actually admits it.

His knowledge of history,of our constitution, is incredible. I am serious go watch him in action while he is still kicking...and kicking strong.

I am still amazed that folks in the press are not on top of giving us an update on Phase II of the SSCI. It just tells me that there are very few investigative reporters left.

Tonight on Chris Matthews Hardball, it was obvious he had received his marching orders from someone up the ladder at MSNBC. He had been going strong lately on the LIES that took us into the war.

Tonight Karen Hughes was a guest, and Matthews allowed her to spin..lie..spin..lie..spin..spin.
I was getting dizzy. Hughes mentioned 9/11 three times in relation to Iraq and Matthews did not challenge her once..not once.

Instead of even pretending to play hardball. He put his tail between his legs rolled over and for a minute I thought he was going to start licking his own balls. The Bush administration did not have to pay for their public relations spin tonight..Chris Matthews gave Karen Hughes her own program. It was disgusting.

The reason the death penalty is costly to enforce is the automatic appeals process it generates. Check this unususal situation from,

"The Post" Athens, Ohio 1997

The death penalty and assisted suicide are two topics many people feel strongly about. An Ohio inmate serving a life sentence has unintentionally found a way to bring both of these controversial topics together.

A Mansfield Correctional Institute prisoner has requested death instead of finishing his life sentence. Originally, he was sentenced to die, but death penalty cases go through an automatic appeals system, regardless of whether or not the criminal wants to appeal. The case was appealed, and he received a life sentence instead of death. If he wants to die, however, the controversy around his case shifts from capital punishment to assisted suicide. It would be up to the courts to allow him to die, as he wishes.

We believe he should be entitled to death if this is what he truly wants. Though assisted suicide is illegal, this case should be given special consideration because the man is already in prison for life. At one time, he was a death penalty candidate. He would have remained on death row had it not been for the automatic appeals system.

He has tried to appeal the appeal, but the court process only costs more taxpayer money. Though at face value, putting a prisoner to death costs more (about $2 million) than keeping him or her in prison (about $800,000), court costs add to the taxpayers' bill. Thus, this inmate will have to fight for his right to die, but for a price. Some people might not understand why he doesn't accept his fate and live out his punishment. After all, he was willing enough to commit the crime. The courts have ruled that he should do the time.

If he feels compelled to die, however, and his crime is heinous enough that at one time, the courts were willing to put this person to death, perhaps the two parties should come to an agreement. Besides, if the court doesn't decide to give him a legal death sentence, he might carry it out himself, without consent of the courts. It is doubtful anyone wants this to happen. Amazingly, this Ohio case mirrors similar cases all over the country. Prisoners may prefer death to spending the rest of their lives in prison. Because we cannot see into the minds of these individuals, we can only guess why those imprisoned for life would prefer death.

Perhaps they are sorry for what they have done - so sorry that they believe they should pay for their crimes with their lives. Perhaps they do not have anyone "on the outside" who sympathizes and who cares enough to help them receive a lesser sentence or to help them cope with the stress of life in prison. Perhaps they are under the impression that death would be better than living in the harsh conditions of many prisons.

Whatever the reason, it is obvious prisoners do not always want to appeal their death sentences. Regardless of how one feels about capital punishment, the fact that some prisoners prefer it to jail makes a strong statement. Something is wrong with the system - the appeals system in particular.

An appeals system should not automatically be used in all death penalty cases. This case demonstrates why the system isn't necessarily the most effective. Had this man's case not been automatically appealed, he would have remained sentenced to die, essentially getting his wish.

Federal death penalty cases have an automatic appeals system. States, however, do not have to necessarily take their cue from the federal government. The death penalty is legal in 38 states. Different states use different methods of capital punishment. For instance, Ohio has two methods: electrocution and lethal injection. Other states' forms of capital punishment include using a gas chamber, firing squads or hanging. If the states are willing to differ on the methods of capital punishment, then perhaps they should be willing to change the automatic appeals process. Then, criminals could accept his or her original fate, without the hassle and cost of going to court to fight for either the right to life - or the right to death.
****************************************
Just another monkeywrench to throw into the debate.

TRH, do you think if they televised abortions it would slow it down? I don't think so. I think America has become immune to death and destruction. After all, that WAS the plan. Look at us now, passing judgment on which murder is just, and which is not. What would Jesus say indeed? Who should suffer DU poisoning, and who should have phosphorous bombs dropped on their heads? Maybe we should have a vote, it could be a TV show. Whoever suffers the most loses.

Culture of Corruption..can we keep up?...Many in Ohio have been working hard on the Diebold criminals .. Latest reports at BradBlog and Raw Story.

MORE DRUM BEATING...PART OF THE NEO-CONS PLAN.."THE CLEAN BREAK.. A NEW STRATEGY FOR SECURING THE REALM"....

State Dept. Rules Out Guarantee on Iran By BARRY SCHWEID, AP Diplomatic Writer
Mon Dec 12, 6:07 PM E

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is ruling out a guarantee not to attack Iran to induce it to halt development of nuclear weapons.

Iran must first act like a responsible member of the international community and stop violating its agreements, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said Monday.

"That would represent a sea change in its behavior," Ereli said. "Then maybe other kinds of notions might be more palatable."

"But right now, I don't think people should be asking the United States, 'Why don't you do this or why don't you do that?'" the U.S. official said.

Ereli's remarks appeared to dismiss a suggestion by Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency, who said Monday in Stockholm that he believed the United States would need to give Iran a security guarantee before a final agreement could be reached on Iran's atomic programs.

ElBaradei also said the United States would need to become more involved in stalled negotiations between Iran and the European Union aimed at persuading Iran to permanent freeze nuclear enrichment.

Last week, Undersecretary of State Robert Joseph said that step was the last "red line" Iran needed to cross to produce nuclear weapons.

Negotiations, meanwhile, are stalled.

In parallel talks designed to halt North Korea's nuclear weapons programs, the United States has offered written guarantees it would not be attacked.

The assurances were offered by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her predecessor, Colin Powell.

On Iran, President Bush, last February, said it was "simply ridiculous" to assume the United States had plans to attack and Rice has made similar statements.

Unlike the negotiations with Iran, the United States is a participant in the negotiations, along with South Korea, Japan, China and Russia.

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Saladin,

I don't think televising abortions or death sentences would provide any more deterrent than not televising it. People are going to be inclined to abort a baby no matter what and some will be prone to kill no matter what. I never thought I would change my mind on the death penalty but I have. The only problem is, now that I have, I know those who are sentenced to life without parole will never be punished the way they should be. They should do hard time with minimal contact with the outside world. And I believe that should be the case, they should not enjoy pleasures their victims no longer enjoy. Sentencing them to life in prison without parole at least does away with the possibility of executing an inncent person.

135 Gerald, the quote comes at the end of David's most recent post, from Paul Bosco

#145 Kathleen, Very interesting post on Daily Kos - "Breaking News: Leon County dumps Diebold" by Einstenina

#145 Kathleen, Very interesting post on Daily Kos - "Breaking News: Leon County dumps Diebold" by Einstenina

SECURITIES FRAUD LITIGATION FILED AGAINST DIEBOLD, INC!
Class Action Suit Alleges Fraud, Insider Trading, Manipulation of Stock Prices, Concealment of Known Flaws in Voting Machines and Company Structural Problems

The BRAD BLOG can now report that a Securities Fraud Class Action suit has been filed against Diebold, Inc. (stock symbol: DBD ) naming eight top executive officers in the...

------------------------------
It couldn't happen to a nicer company. May it someday be voted out of existence.

Is the Pentagon spying on Americans? Secret database obtained by NBC News tracks 'suspicious' domestic groups

A year ago, at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Worth, Fla., a small group of activists met to plan a protest of military recruiting at local high schools. What they didn't know was that their meeting had come to the attention of the U.S. military.

A secret 400-page Defense Department document obtained by NBC News lists the Lake Worth meeting as a 'threat' and one of more than 1,500 'suspicious incidents' across the country over a recent 10-month period.

"This peaceful, educationally oriented group being a threat is incredible," says Evy Grachow, a member of the Florida group called The Truth Project.
----------------------
A couple of days ago I posted about this subject. I wrote about the waste of manpower and the anger spying like this generated. Why are they wasting my taxes on a group who will never be a threat to society? What the pentagon is doing is keeping tabs on those that oppose the war, nothing more. Talk about a slippery slope. How many people can they investigate because the numbers against the war are growing every day?

Just wanted to share a Todd Rundgren song

"I hate my fricken ISP"

The reason that I signed up
Is the reason that I hate it
I know she's made her mind up
I just don't know how she's made it

And my dial-up screen has locked me Into a touch tone tune monotony
Because some snot-nosed pube has blocked me out
And I wait And I wait

And I hate my frickin ISP
He ain't got go bandwidth left for me
And I'll never get back Never get back
the time that I waste That's what I hate

My job's so hard to swallow
But it's got me by the collar
In some Motel 6 squalor
Where every local call's a dollar

I got no time left to blow off
I got a deadline that won't back off
I'm about to chew my own leg off
Cause it's so late And I'm late

And I hate my frickin ISP
I get bumped for inactivity
And I'll never get back
Never get back the time that I waste
That's what I hate

It rained CD roms that gave me
Twenty hours free
I let my service provider
Make a junky outta me
And then he cut me off
From my online community
And now I hate, I hate it
I hate I hate I hate I hate....

Just goes to show there is a song in everything.

It just tells me that there are very few investigative reporters left.

amen to THAT sister

McCain's Defining Moment- Ray McGovern

Sen. John McCain and his Senate colleagues have given Congress a chance to redeem itself in a small but significant way for its craven abdication of responsibility three years ago, when it handed the president what Sen. Robert Byrd warned would be a "blank check" for war on Iraq.

With the help of now-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld have stretched that blank check to include authorization for torturing detainees by CIA and U.S. military personnel. McCain, himself a victim of torture in Vietnam, is trying to bring the U.S. into compliance with international norms, while the Bush administration is trying desperately to leave the door open for CIA interrogators to act beyond those norms without threat of prosecution...

....While I admire Sen. McCain for taking a stand, even he seems to be pulling his punches. It strikes me as odd, for example, that he cites damage to the U.S. image abroad as the primary reason why torture should be banned. Our tarnished image is a serious problem, but it is, in my view, among the least compelling of a long list of reasons to throw torture out of our national security toolbox. Others that come to mind, in ascending order of importance, are:

Torture puts our own troops, as well as those of other countries, in jeopardy of "reciprocal" treatment.

Torture brutalizes not only the victim but also the brutalizer. (Talk, as I have, to those who took part in, or merely witnessed, torture in Iraq or Afghanistan.)

Information acquired by torture is notoriously unreliable. Experienced interrogators know that torture is as likely to yield misinformation as accurate information, since torture victims will say anything to stop the pain. In the past, torture fell into disuse primarily because it did not work.

But above all these, torture is morally wrong. It inhabits the same category as slavery, genocide, rape, incest—°lways, intrinsically wrong. Civilized societies have long opposed torture since it is widely recognized as an intolerable affront to the inherent human right to physical integrity and personal dignity. That is why there are so many laws against torture. It is not wrong because it is illegal; it is illegal because it is wrong.
---------------------------
The statement by Ray McGovern about the brutalizing of the victim as well as the brutalizer is something I have wondered about. When a soldier is given an order they must comply. That is why it is so important to have good leadership. A lot will be asked of the soldier in a time of war and everything that is asked should be rational and necessary. What are we asking of our CIA? What are they being ordered to do? And who exactly are we putting in the role?

I just emailed this unique Christmas card to my friends on the blog, but I want everybody to see it. *peace and love, Alan
=========================
This is most unique Christmas card I have ever seen -- you click on one of the lighted items and it jumps into another wonderful scene - it goes from page to page and each page is better than the previous page......also requires sound - Give it time to download.
">Click here~

retry

Another very pretty one from deeper into the same site.

A Whisper of Wings

#148 Steve, thank you for your help!!!

Fitzgerald to brief grand jury Wednesday

Although the grand jury’s term expires in 18 months, Fitzgerald is expected to wrap up the case as it relates to Rove before the end of the year, the sources said.

Fitzgerald intends to present the grand jury with the sworn testimony from Rove’s attorney Robert Luskin, and Time magazine reporter Viveca Novak. The sources close to the case said Fitzgerald is still intent on seeking an indictment against Rove on at least one count of making false statements to FBI and Justice Department investigators when he was first interviewed in early October 2003 about his role in the leak.

Rove failed to tell investigators at the time that he had spoken about covert CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper and conservative columnist Robert Novak, who first published her name and CIA status in a July 14, 2003 column. Rove had been a source for both journalists. Cooper and Novak later cooperated in the case. Luskin said Rove had forgotten about the conversation.

Eleventh-hour testimony from reporter Viveca Novak—who Rove’s attorney Robert Luskin fingered as a crucial witness in keeping his client out of court—does not appear to have been helpful to Rove in dodging an indictment, the sources said.

*****end of clip*****

I imagine an indictment is good news for America!

capt

Fitzgerald was long suspicious Rove had hidden evidence; Not swayed by last minute testimony, lawyers say

Fitzgerald was concerned that Rove had hidden or destroyed evidence, lawyers close to the case tell RAW STORY. His suspicions may have been right: an email he sent to then Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in early July 2003 later proved Rove had spoken to Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper about Plame—a fact that Rove omitted when he was first interviewed by the FBI.

Whether or not Fitzgerald knew in late January or early February 2004 about the existence of the email Rove sent to Hadley remains unknown. The email did not show up during a search ordered by then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales in 2003. Gonzales enjoined all White House staff to turn over any communication about Valerie Plame Wilson and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a vocal critic of the Iraq war who accused the Bush administration of twisting prewar Iraq intelligence. Gonzales’ request came 12 hours after senior White House officials had been told of the pending investigation.

Hadley did not respond to repeated requests for comment. Calls placed to the National Security Council were dropped by press office aides.

According to those familiar with the case and earlier reporting by RAW STORY, Fitzgerald had already obtained the cooperation of a key witness, former Deputy National Security Adviser for Vice President Dick Cheney, John Hannah. In February 2004, Hannah agreed to cooperate with Fitzgerald when the special prosecutor uncovered evidence tying Hannah to the leak and threatened to indict him, the sources said.

Hannah gave Fitzgerald the names of some White House officials who knew about Plame Wilson and disseminated her CIA status to reporters and other White House officials, the laywers said. One of the officials Hannah appears to have implicated was Rove, they added. Cheney promoted Hannah to be his assistant national security adviser following Libby’s indictment.

Fitzgerald still looking to indict Rove

Short of a last minute intervention by Rove’s attorney, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is expected to ask a grand jury investigating the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson to indict Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove for making false statements to the FBI and Justice Department investigators in October 2003, lawyers close to the case say.

Rove failed to tell investigators at the time that he had spoken about Plame to Time Magazine reporter Matthew Cooper and conservative columnist Robert Novak, both of whom later cooperated in the case. Novak outed Plame in a July 14, 2003 column.

The Chicago prosecutor briefed the second grand jury investigating the outing last week for more than three hours. During that time, he brought them up to speed on the latest developments involving Rove and at least one other White House official, the sources said. The attorneys refused to identify the second person.

As of Monday, neither Rove nor his attorney Robert Luskin has explained Rove’s misstatements to Fitzgerald’s satisfaction, those familiar with the case said. Eleventh-hour testimony from Time Magazine reporter Viveca Novak—who Rove’s attorney Robert Luskin fingered as a crucial witness in keeping his client out of court—does not appear to have been helpful in dodging an indictment, they added.

*****end of clip*****

Maybe there will be a Merry Fitzmas!

I thought the Luskin eleventh hour play was one spin too many. Hiding evidence? Too bad Fitzgerald does not go after the AG for not finding the memo (I think the AG was hiding evidence)

Rove will have to resign if indicted. Watch Bush try to keep Rove in the West wing. This could be very entertaining.

capt

File Under "What the Bleep do WE know!"
__________________________
The find came when the team turned an electron microscope on the tusk's material and found new subtleties of dental anatomy. The close-ups showed that 10 million nerve endings tunnel from the tusk's core toward its outer surface, communicating with the outside world. The scientists say the nerves can detect subtle changes of temperature, pressure, particle gradients and probably much else, giving the animal unique insights.

"This whale is intent on understanding its environment," said Martin T. Nweeia, the team's leader and a clinical instructor at the Harvard School of Dental Medicine. Contrary to common views, he said, "The tusk is not about guys duking it out with sticks and swords."
______________________

Just one of my favorite animals...who'da thunk?

-T

Compelling Words

Here is a quote from Paul Bosco whose brother and sister-in-law were murdered by Tookie Williams. "The inexplicable fear of mercy ravages our nation, as it busily wears Christian values on its sleeve, nowhere near its unhealed heart."

Paul Bosco goes on to say that he opposes the death penalty and he is a follower of the original death penalty opponent, Jesus Christ. He believes that the State should not be in the business of killing people. Killing Tookie Williams by the State would not make him less of a victim, by peddling vengeance as that illusion of closure.

Paul Bosco's words make a compelling case for opposing the death penalty. As a Christian when we recall the life of Jesus Christ, we know that Jesus opposed killing for any reason. Paul Bosco reflects true Christian values.

Alan, that was beautiful, merci beaucoup and Merry Christmas to you too.

If Democrats only had some courage

WASHINGTON -- It's about time that the "me too" Democrats, particularly those in Congress who vote with the Republicans so often, stand up and be counted.

Too many Democrats are tiptoeing around the major issues facing our nation, afraid to venture out of the mainstream. This is a big mistake at a time when the nation is begging for true leadership.

Democrats with the courage to be leaders could have a field day pointing out that millions of Americans lack health insurance and that 37 million have fallen below the poverty line. Soon they will no longer be able to claim that theirs is a caring political party because they won't have evidence that this is true.

Take, for example, the case of Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y.

Instead of endorsing universal health care -- a topic that she knows a lot about -- Clinton is busy co-sponsoring with Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, a law to bar desecration of the flag. Has anyone burned a flag lately?

Clinton is a leading contender for the Democratic presidential nomination, which might explain why she's busy pandering to conservatives instead of staking out a leadership role on more important issues.

The Democrats' lack of political courage has left voters with the choice of Republicans who call themselves that -- and Republicans who call themselves Democrats. The result: The GOP gets a free ride.

*****end of clip*****

The two party system stinks. Not enough options, not for us the voter but for the politicians. It really is GOP or GOP-lite. It is like a choice between beef or veal when all you want is fish or chicken!

A group of only two meaningful parties is too easy to corrupt. At this point I do not give quarter to any from either side. I assume they have been corrupted and hope one or two will prove me wrong.

Imagine there were two companies that controlled ninety percent of any market. They would collude to preserve the status quo. In doing so, join together to protect their sustainability against the market forces that protect their customers interest.

It is no different in politics. Keeping options limited keeps the corrupted forces in power.

capt

George Vine

When I read Paul Bosco's words, I recalled George Vine and his life. George Vine is a Jew who survived a Nazi concentration camp. In this concentration camp all of his family were killed. He mentioned what his father said to him. "George, you must survive." George did survive.

When he was asked if he hated the Nazis for killing his family, George said that he did not hate the Nazis because hatred serves no purpose and it will shorten a person's life. I cannot recall his exact words but I do recall that George does not hate the Nazis.

George Vine and Paul Bosco are remarkable people.

Rove will have to resign if indicted.

Capt, I'm not a lawyer but... if Rove was indicted, wouldn't he have to get a new lawyer because Luskin was/is/will be called to testify in court?

#151 Jeanne, I thought that the new law that took effect on October 1, 2005, corporations could not be sued. This suit is only blowing in the wind. The Supreme Court is packed with Nazis and they will up hold the new law.

#164 Glad ya liked it Kaff. :-)

The 'Retreat and Defeat' Dems

By Stephen Pizzo,
News for Real
December 14, 2005

For once the Republican attack machine has described the Democratic Party perfectly: retreat and defeat. It's what Democrats are all about now. I'm not talking about the Democrats' position (if they had one) on Bush's fool's errand of a war in Iraq. I'm talking about how Democrats have flatly refused to stand and fight the war here at home, the war for America's own democracy.

Democrats remind me of the that group of kids in every grammar school whose members were not smart enough to be dorks nor tough enough to be knuckle-dragging jocks. They are stuck in a social vacuum of sorts. Every now and then one of them gets some backbone and declares he's "gonna show those jocks." To which his frustrated friends eagerly egg him on. So he tosses an insult or rock at the school thugs, who of course immediately counter attack. His friends desert him leaving him screaming, "it was an accident, honest. I didn't mean it." After which the thugs would beat the crap out of him anyway.

*****end of clip*****

I think the article is a bit harsh. Maybe some of the Democrats will read a piece or two that makes them consider how badly they are missing the point and the opportunity to do some good.

If they do not stand for something they do not stand for anything.

capt

PS - I am not sure that applies to a grand jury. Luskin was bringing evidence from his testimony, if he was called in a criminal trial I am pretty sure you are right.

"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

______

Hate is ugly no matter the reason. It always looks bad on those that choose to wear it.

capt

You People, Don't feel sorry for Tookie Williams. He was a man hell-bent on distruction and evildoing. He probably extended his life by getting caught and thrown in prison. Just because he says he is a changed man don't make it right.

I'm not big on killing another human. That being by war, execution, murder, or mercy. But people need to know that by not living up to law of the land will bring upon consequences.

Patches out for IE holes

By Joris Evers

Dec 13 13:23:00 PST 2005

Microsoft on Tuesday provided a fix for a "critical" security flaw in Windows that is being exploited in online attacks against Internet Explorer users.

The software maker released the patch in security bulletin MS05-054, as part of its monthly patching cycle. The update also plugs three other security holes in Internet Explorer, the Web browser component of Windows. One of the other flaws is also deemed critical, but Microsoft said it is not aware of any malicious code that takes advantage of it.

"An attacker who successfully exploited the most severe of these vulnerabilities could take complete control of an affected system," Microsoft warned in its security bulletin, referring to the two critical IE flaws. The vulnerabilities exist in all currently supported versions of the browser on all editions of Windows.

*****end of clip*****

If your computer uses windows and IE make sure you are up to date. If you are not set up for automatic update, you might not be current.

capt

"The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive. " ~ Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988), "Job", 1984

"You live and learn. Or you don't live long. " ~ Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"

"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." ~ Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"

"What are the facts? Again and again and again - what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars fortell", avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" - what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts! " ~ Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"

"A fool cannot be protected from his folly. If you attempt to do so, you will not only arouse his animosity but also you will be attempting to deprive him of whatever benefit he is capable of deriving from experience. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. " ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"I've got a twisted sense of humor, and everything amuses me. " ~ Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988), Beyond this Horizon

"Each man is his own prisoner, in solitary confinement for life. " ~ Robert A. Heinlein, "If This Goes On"

"The Office does not sanctify the holder of it. " ~ Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988)

I do not morn for the executed. I morn for the very soul of the executioner and the state. They committed homicide and their guilt is not questioned or tried.

Let them address their higher power and offer some excuse for their crime.

It is never the loss of life that creates the cost, it is the taking of life that challenges the force that creates life.

We all die, that is no illusion but few take a life. What cost is that to the living? State authority does not mean infallible action and no state can indemnify an act of murder or the snuffing out of the candle lit by its creator.

These days the death penalty is just a device where politicians can pretend to be tough on crime by being tough on criminals. Hardly a reason for murder.

capt

Death Penalty Moratorium on the Table

Five Democrats want a hiatus until 2009 while a state panel reviews the system. The plan, unrelated to Williams case, faces a fight.

By Jordan Rau
Times Staff Writer

December 14, 2005

SACRAMENTO —†State legislators in early January will consider what is likely to be a contentious proposal to postpone executions for as long as three years.

On Jan. 10, an Assembly committee plans to consider legislation that would place a moratorium on executions until a special commission finishes examining whether California's criminal justice system allows innocent people to be convicted.

The bill, the first of its kind in Sacramento in more than a decade, faces substantial political and legal hurdles. Its hearing —†scheduled long before convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams' execution Tuesday —†comes as the state is poised to perform a record number of executions in the coming year.

The California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice, created by the state Senate last year, is studying the extent to which people have been wrongly convicted of crimes. The commission, composed of people on all sides of the issue, was charged with suggesting improvements to lawmakers by the end of 2007.

Among the topics the panel is set to look at are the frequency of police suppression of exculpatory evidence, and false testimony from witnesses and jailhouse informants.

"There's a half a dozen issues that are recurring in exoneration cases," said Jon Streeter, a San Francisco business trial lawyer who is chairman of the panel. "We see them time and time again. They tend to arise in death penalty cases, where the problems can be the most serious."

Five Democrats have proposed the moratorium until either the Legislature "has fully considered" the panel's suggestions or, if lawmakers take no action, Jan. 1, 2009.

The legislative debate and commission's work will probably revive some of the emotional topics that the Williams case evoked, including whether the death penalty has a racial bias and what degree of certainty is necessary before ending a life.

Death penalty proponents, however, say they will vigorously oppose any delay.

*****end of clip*****

Death penalty proponents seem to be very blood thirsty for more deaths. I could understand that position from victims and surviving family members but politicians and community leaders that are so blood thirsty just come across as evil and hateful. Sure they hate the bad guys but even that assumes only the guilty are convicted. Pretty big assumption given the history of justice.

The blood thirsty cannot wait three years? Why are they in a hurry?

capt

"Cruelty must be whitewashed by a moral excuse, and pretense of reluctance." ~ George Bernard Shaw

The views expressed (here and elsewhere) that have no pretense of reluctance are troubling.

Unless I know, by firsthand - my eyes and ears - evidence of a persons guilt, all verdicts are assumptions of justice. Death is too final to be based on the presumption of guilt.

I do believe in a higher power and I do not seek to presume I know better when a life should end.

I would defend myself, my family and my home and would regret having to do so with deadly force but that qualifies as firsthand.

We all know how a sly attorney or poor prosecutor can blow a case or cause an unjustice conclusion. I do not trust the system to apply justice in fair and even measure. That is a show stopper for me with the death penalty issue.

IMHO

capt

Gallup Wallops Bush

News from the DNC:

Washington, DC - Today's CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll has some more bad news for President Bush: 58 percent of Americans "said they do not believe President Bush has a plan that will achieve victory in Iraq." This same poll found only 42 percent of Americans approve of Bush's overall performance as President. [CNN, 12/13/05]

This new data follows last week's New York Times/CBS News Poll which found that 52 percent of Americans believe that "the Bush administration intentionally misled the public when its officials made the case for war." [New York Times, 12/8/05]

While most Americans don't think President Bush has a plan for Iraq and misled the public prior to the war, he is also beginning to be a drag on Republicans up for re-election in 2006. According to today's Quinnipiac poll, 60 percent of Pennsylvanians think Bush's support hurts Republican Senator Rick Santorum's re-election chances. Santorum now trails his Democratic challenger, Pennsylvania State Treasurer Bob Casey, 50 percent to 38 percent. [Quinnipiac University, 12/13/05]

"Poll numbers continue to show that President Bush's decision to rely on a pollster's rhetoric in a series of campaign-style events is not enough not hide his failed leadership," said Democratic National Committee Communications Director Karen Finney. "It is astonishing that the White House is celebrating a 40 percent approval rating, a paltry rating which only proves that President Bush's credibility will continue to suffer as long as he fails to level with the American people about Iraq. It looks like President Bush's coattails are hurting rather than helping Republicans up for re-election in 2006."

*****end of clip*****

Celebrating a 40% approval? A sitting "war time" president?

Sorry trolls but your guy sucks BIG TIME! Everybody knows it. Everybody knows who started the illegal and unwise invasion of Iraq. Everybody knows the reason he gave for the invasion and that the reasons were all lies.

Given the facts it makes some sense they would celebrate a 40% approval, by all rights it should be in the single digits.

capt

Just goes to show that those in the 40% are idiot republicans, nothing more, but they don't realize that their new lifestyle will not be a happy one.

W. Won't Read This

December 14th, 2005 by RLR
From NY Times
By Maureen Dowd

Never ask a guy who is in a bubble if he is in a bubble. He can't answer.

Because he's in a bubble.

But the NBC anchor Brian Williams gamely gave it a shot, showing the president the Newsweek cover picturing him trapped in a bubble.

"This says you're in a bubble," Brian told W. "You have a very small circle of advisers now. Is that true? Do you feel in a bubble?"

"No, I don't feel in a bubble," Bubble Boy replied, unable to see the bubble because he's in it. "I feel like I'm getting really good advice from very capable people and that people from all walks of life have informed me and informed those who advise me." He added, "I'm very aware of what's going on."

He swiftly contradicted himself by admitting that "this is the first time I'm seeing this magazine" his version of his dad's Newsweek "Wimp Factor" cover and that he doesn't read newsmagazines.

The anchor and the anchorite spent a few anodyne moments probing the depths of what it's like to be president. "I just talked to the president-elect of Honduras," W. said. "A lot of my job is foreign policy, and I spend an enormous amount of time with leaders from other countries."

Brian struggled to learn whether W. read anything except one-page memos. Talking about his mom, Bubble Boy returned to the idea of the bubble: "If I'm in a bubble, well, if there is such thing as a bubble, she's the one who can penetrate it."

"I'll tell the guys at Newsweek," the anchor said impishly.

"Is that who put the bubble story?" W. asked. First he didn't know about it, and now he's forgotten it already? That's the alluring, memory-cleansing beauty of the bubble.

The idea that W. is getting good advice from very capable people is silly administration officials have blown it on everything from the occupation and natural disasters to torture. In the bubble, they can torture while saying they don't. They can pretend that Iraqi forces are stronger than they are. They can try to frighten people with talk of Al Qaeda's dream of a new Islamic caliphate their latest attempt to scare Americans into supporting the war they ginned up.

"Whether or not it needed to happen," the president told the anchor, "I'm still convinced it needed to happen." The Bubble Boy can even contradict himself and not notice.

W.'s contention that he's informed by people from all walks of life is a joke, as is his wacky assertion that he can "reach out" to the public more than Abraham Lincoln because he has Air Force One. Lincoln actually went to the front in his war, with Mini? balls whizzing by. No phony turkey for him.

The president may fly over all walks of life in Air Force One or drive by them and hide behind dark-tinted windows. In his bubble, he floats through a comforting world of doting women, respectful military audiences, loyal Republican donors and screened partisan groups with protesters, Democrats, journalists, critics and coffins of dead soldiers kept at bay.

(He has probably even been shielded from the outrage of John and Stacey Holley, both Army veterans, who were shocked to learn that their only child, Matthew, killed in Iraq, would be arriving in San Diego as freight on a commercial airliner.)

Jack Murtha, a hawkish Democrat close to the Pentagon who supported both wars against Iraq waged by the Bushes, has been braying against the Bush isolation. He told Newsweek that a letter he wrote to the president making suggestions about how to fight the Iraq war was ignored for seven months, then brushed off by a deputy under secretary of defense. Even after he went public, he still did not get a call from the White House.

"If they talked to people," he said, "they wouldn’¥ get these outbursts."

Mr. Murtha told Rolling Stone that the administration's deafness had doomed Iraq: "Everything we did was mishandled. Plans that the military and the State Department had in place they ignored ‘•m. The military tells me that when they were planning the invasion, the administration wouldn’¥ let one of the primary three-star generals in the room."

The president’≥ bubble requires constant care. It’≥ not easy to keep out huge tragedies like Katrina, or flawed policies like Iraq. As Newsweek noted, a foreign diplomat "was startled when Secretary of State Rice warned him not to lay bad news on the president. ‘Ñon’¥ upset him,’†she said."

Heaven forbid. Don’¥ burst his bubble.

*****end of clip*****

Oh yeah, bubble-boy is not in a bubble, I think he is in a hardened shell.

His mom would tell him and penetrate the bubble? Too sick to even consider the possibilities.

His mind is obviously gone. Time for a little impeachment for the good of the country, that is the top priority, no?

capt

On the deterrent effect of public executions. Some years ago I read a claim (unfortunately I can not remember where) that while there was deterrent effect geographically (i.e. state murder rates), a well publicised execution lowered the NATIONAL murder rate for the next week. The people it deters have very short memories.

Public executions also used to have the criminal give a little speech which would later be published in a brochure about the execution. These were generally warnings to young people to avoid evil ways.

Capt, what's really amazing is that those same 40 percent support him even though he said he would have made the same decision to invade Iraq today, knowing what he knows now. This is a galaxy beyond stupid and proves they are nothing but racist haters that want to murder those they have been programmed to despise.

Trade gap widens to record
Deficit soars unexpectedly to $68.9 billion in October despite a drop in the cost of imported oil.
December 14, 2005: 8:35 AM EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. trade deficit widened unexpectedly in October to a record $68.9 billion despite a drop in the cost of imported oil, as the deficits with China, Canada, the European Union, Mexico and OPEC all hit records, government data showed Wednesday.

Economists surveyed by Briefing.com had expected the trade gap to shrink in October to $62.8 billion, and the surprising growth in the imbalance suggests fourth-quarter economic growth will likely be even weaker than first thought.

The Commerce Department said the deficit widened 4.4 percent from September after growing 11.9 percent the previous month.

Imports of goods and services rose 2.7 percent to a record $176.4 billion while exports increased a smaller 1.7 percent to $107.5 billion.

While oil import prices declined in the month to an average $56.29 per barrel, the volume of crude imports surged 9.3 percent, driving the value to $17.1 billion, the second-highest on record. Imports of energy-related petroleum products, a wider category that includes propane and butane, hit a record $26.2 billion.

Imports of industrial supplies and materials and automotive vehicles and parts rose to records in October. Imports of consumer goods also climbed, while decreases occurred in foods, feeds and beverages and capital goods.
-----------
What freakin planet do those economists live on anyway?? Does the US actually manufacture ANYTHING anyone in other countries want to buy?

Listen Carefully

Please listen carefully to Bush whenever he is asked about not being able to run for a third term. Bush has never responded to the question. I have heard that question asked of him at least three times and he never did respond.

Bush has no intention of ever leaving the WH and I mean never.

God help the world! bush's IQ is lower than room temperature -- or he's pickled his brain on booze and drugs. It is frightening to think that this bozo is "leader of the free world." What does that say about us???!!!

The president admits a mistake -- but not on Iraq

News flash: George W. Bush has admitted a mistake. In an interview with NBC's Brian Williams, the president said it may be his own fault that so many Americans think he's uninformed about the world.

After explaining that he's not really in a bubble -- except insofar as he can't just go out shopping for Laura -- Bush said that he's probably to blame for creating the "myth" that he doesn't read newspapers. "Frankly, it is probably part of my own fault for needling people," the president said. "But it's a myth to think I don't know what's going on. And it's a myth to think that I'm not aware that there is opinions that don't agree with mine. Because I'm fully aware of that."

Bush told Williams that he reads a newspaper every day; that he gets more news from aides; that he sees protests on the streets when he travels but they're "smaller than they used to be"; and that he hears opinions from the families of fallen soldiers. When meeting with the families, Bush said, "I try to be patient and absorb the anguish of a family that's just mourning."

He's absorbing, but he's not changing. Asked whether he agreed that the war in Iraq was an "elective" war, Bush said it was in the sense that "troops don't move unless I give the order. So, from that sense it was elective. I mean, I could have said, 'No, we'll try to, you know, hope for the best with Saddam Hussein.'

"Remember, at the time we didn't know the facts on the ground. We -- everybody thought the guy had weapons of mass destruction. Everybody knew that he'd used weapons of mass destruction and had provided safe haven for terrorists. I mean, those were facts. Whether or not it had to happen is -- it didn't have to happen since a human being made the decision. Whether or not it needed to happen, I'm still convinced it needed to happen."

And he's still convinced, more or less, that Dick Cheney was right when he insisted that U.S. troops would be welcomed as "liberators" in Iraq. "I think we are welcomed," Bush said, "but it was not a peaceful welcome."

-- Tim Grieve, salon.com

Does the US actually manufacture ANYTHING anyone in other countries want to buy?

Weapons.
Movies.
Soda pop. (Do a google search for Coca-Cola + CIA and see what comes up.)

Of course, the U.S. movie industry is largely filming in Canada & Mexico these days...

Robert, I was being facetious! :-) Those 3 things you mention are adding to the dumbing down and death of this country.

Appendix C: (PDF) Incomplete List of Capital Judgments Reversed on State Post-Conviction and Related Types of Review

Introduction and Key

This Appendix contains an incomplete list of the capital cases in which state post-conviction relief was granted between 1973 and April 2000. The list is incomplete because many state post-conviction decisions (whether or not relief was granted) are not published, and information on some of them is not available except by a search—¢eyond our capacity—Øf the records of each of thousands of local, intermediate and statewide courts throughout the United States with potential jurisdiction over capital state post-conviction cases.

Because we only collected information about reversals, this list does not permit an accurate count of the proportion of capital judgments finally reviewed by state post-conviction courts during the study period that were affirmed or reversed. As we now explain, however, it is possible to use our data to make a different calculation that can serve as an extremely conservative estimate of the state post-conviction reversal rate.

Reversals pre-1996: 248
Reversals 1996 and after: 94
(over 52 months = average of 22/year)
Total reversals (1973- Apr. 2000): 342

*****end of clip*****

The number of reversals should be zero if the system only convicted and administered the death penalty with infallibility to those guilty as charged and well represented.

This is just one statistic but I have looked for hard data to support the deterrence argument and have found only anecdotal fluff and numbers taken out of context.

I think many facing life without parole would prefer going to sleep. (I think I would) I have a cousin doing life without parole. His brother says he prefers solitary so he is always causing trouble to get away from the crowd. He will likely die in prison. The appeals process is much less intensive and therefore much less costly for "life-without". His appeals were done and over a few years ago. Pretty major punishment and I do believe in giving them time to consider the terrible damage they have caused others.

If the criminal is bad enough there is a balance that is set by the community within the prisons ie: Jeffery Dahlmer. I know child molesters and rapists do not fare well in prison because many of the inmates have wives and children.

capt

#185 & others,

God help us indeed!

If it is half as bad as I think, we are in some deep Qaqaa! He actually thinks if he was in a bubble his mom would set him right? She thinks the refugees from Katrina were making out like bandits.

AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!

capt

New Army Rules May Snarl Talks With McCain on Detainee Issue
By ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON, Dec. 13 - The Army has approved a new, classified set of interrogation methods that may complicate negotiations over legislation proposed by Senator John McCain to bar cruel and inhumane treatment of detainees in American custody, military officials said Tuesday.

The techniques are included in a 10-page classified addendum to a new Army field manual that was forwarded this week to Stephen A. Cambone, the under secretary of defense for intelligence policy, for final approval, they said.

The addendum provides dozens of examples and goes into exacting detail on what procedures may or may not be used, and in what circumstances. Army interrogators have never had a set of such specific guidelines that would help teach them how to walk right up to the line between legal and illegal interrogations.

[...] "This is a stick in McCain's eye," one official said. "It goes right up to the edge. He's not going to be comfortable with this."

More.

***************

Freedom is on the march! And it's headed straight over the cliff...

Re: Manufacturing

Still BIG in petro-chemicals to poison the planet!

Think plastic and add our very unique debt industry.

Just piling on! HA!

capt

Sal,

I had my tongue half in my cheek as well, but seriously, the CIA/Coca-Cola connection is really interesting.

You may remember that they were the first US comapny doing business in the former USSR and I believe China.

Now they are heavily into union busting in Colombia.

A Fusion of Like Minds
Busharon
By GEORGE BISHARAT

From: Counterpunch

A word is missing from our current political lexicon. We need a term that describes the creature that is emerging out of the pool of resources being formed by the U.S. and Israel--especially under the twin administrations of George W. Bush and Ariel Sharon. I've thought about this carefully, and I think I have the answer: "Busharon". Busharon is a unitary being created by the fusion of formerly distinct minds and bodies, that rises from the muck to scourge the earth.

I admit I wrestled with another appealing contender: Master/Blaster, based on that priceless character(s) from "Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome". Master was a malevolent genius, but a midget. His power, therefore, rested, literally, on Blaster -whose massive shoulders Master constantly rode. This irresistible alliance of intelligence and brute strength was what enabled Master/Blaster to control--guess what? The world's energy resources! Sure, in the post-Armageddon landscape they inhabited, it was pig excrement, not oil--but that's only a difference of a few million years of decomposition, right?

...Blaster is so easily manipulated by Master because he is a moron, a figure of child-like simplicity. Almost seals the deal, right? Just to make it official, President Bush has elevated Ariel Sharon from "a man of peace" to "my teacher"! Sharon's Israeli biographer, Uri Avnery, credits his man with conceptualizing the "New Middle East"--democratized, maybe a little tinkering with borders here and there. This project is now championed by Bush, even if he can't pronounce "conceptualizing."
-------------
"We control America"
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.
-------------
He said this less then a month after 9/11. Is the media beginning to wake up?

Assholes

It never ceases to amaze me that America is a land of assholes. If you doubt me, please remember that each one of us has an asshole. Most Americans who voted for Bush are big time assholes and the minority of Americans are small time assholes.

Here is a perfect example. Bush blows the shit out of Iraq; he murders thousands of people; and we will never leave Iraq. He talks about how well Iraq is making progress and how we are helping to reconstruct the country. Being in Iraq will cost us $2 to 3 trillion for the first twenty years.

But, in America we do not have the money to reconstruct New Orleans and the other Gulf communities. What is truly amazing is that the majority of Americans worship Bush and the cheneygod. If that does not signify to you how many Americans are truly assholes what will alert you that Americans accept the fact that they are assholes?

New report reveals high numbers of hate crimes

November 21, 2005 -- The real number of hate crimes in the United States is more than 15 times higher than FBI statistics reflect, according to a stunning new government report.

Hate crime statistics published by the FBI since 1992, based on voluntary reports from law enforcement agencies around the country, have shown annual totals of about 6,000 to 10,000, depending on the year. But the new report, "Hate Crimes Reported by Victims and Police," found an average annual total of 191,000 hate crimes. That means the real level of hate crime runs between 19 and 31 times higher than the numbers that have been officially reported for almost 15 years.

"It's an astounding report," said Jack Levin, a leading hate crime expert at Northeastern University. "It's not necessarily completely accurate, but I would trust these data before I trusted the voluntary law enforcement reports to the FBI."

The new report, compiled by the Bureau of Justice Statistics and published this month, was based on an analysis of three-and-a-half years of detailed survey data from the biannual National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS raw data comes from interviews with almost 80,000 statistically representative people and is the most accurate crime survey extant.

The report, which inferred hate motivation from the words and symbols used by the offender, found that just 44 percent of hate crimes are reported to police. Other hate crimes don't make it into FBI statistics for an array of reasons: police may fail to record some as hate crimes; their departments may not report hate crime statistics to state officials; and those officials may not accurately report to the FBI.

According to the new report, hate crimes involve violence far more often than other crimes. The data showed 84 percent of hate crimes were violent, meaning they involved a sexual attack, robbery, assault or murder. By contrast, just 23 percent of non-hate crimes involved violence. Other studies have suggested that hate-motivated violence, especially against homosexuals, is more extreme than other violence.

The report also showed that 56 percent of hate crime victims identified race as the primary factor in the crimes they reported. Ethnicity accounted for another 29 percent of the total. Hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation were 18 percent of the total. Given that the best studies indicate about 3 percent of the American population is homosexual, this means that gays and lesbians are victimized at six times the overall rate.

*****end of clip*****

And the FBI pretends there is no hate crime problem.

Sooner or later those whistling past the graveyard get hit by a car. If the numbers are as under-reported as it seems, this is a major problem.

Freedom is on the march indeed.

RE: Coke - no doubt on many levels. The spooks have to have some kind of cover. As do the coke dealers (non-cola)

capt

No Couch Potato Left Behind Act
By George F. Will
Thursday, December 8, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Feeling, evidently, flush with (other people's) cash, the Senate has concocted a novel way to spend $3 billion: Create a new entitlement. The Senate has passed -- and so has the House, with differences -- an entitlement to digital television.
If this filigree on the welfare state becomes law, everyone who owns old analog television sets -- everyone from your Aunt Emma in her wee apartment to the millionaire in the neighborhood McMansion who has such sets in the maid's room and the guest house -- will get subsidies to pay for making those sets capable of receiving digital signals.

If you think America is suffering an entitlement glut, you may have just hurled the newspaper across the room. Pick it up and read on, because this story illustrates the timeless truth that no matter how deeply you distrust the government's judgment, you are too trusting. Here, as explained by James L. Gattuso of the Heritage Foundation, is the crisis du jour: The nation is making a slow transition from analog to digital television broadcasting.

Why is this a crisis? Because, although programming currently is broadcast in both modes, by April 2009 broadcasters must end analog transmissions and the government will have auctioned the analog frequencies for various telecommunications purposes. For the vast majority of Americans, April 2009 will mean absolutely nothing. Nationwide, 85 percent of all television households (and 63 percent of households below the poverty line) already have cable or satellite service.

What will become of households that do not? Leaving aside such eccentric alternative pastimes as conversation and reading, the digitally deprived could pursue happiness by buying a new television set, all of which will be digital-capable by March 2007. Today a digital-capable set with a flat-screen display can be purchased from -- liberals, please pardon the mention of your Great Satan -- Wal-Mart for less than $460. But compassionate conservatism has a government response to the crisis.

Remember, although it is difficult to do so, that Republicans control Congress. And today's up-to-date conservatism does not stand idly by expecting people to actually pursue happiness on their own. Hence the new entitlement from Congress to help all Americans acquire converter boxes to put on top of old analog sets, making the sets able to receive digital programming. All Americans -- rich and poor; it is uncompassionate to discriminate on the basis of money when dispersing money -- will be equally entitled to the help.

The $990 million House version of this entitlement -- call it "No Couch Potato Left Behind" -- is (relatively) parsimonious: Consumers would get vouchers worth only $40, and would be restricted to a measly two vouchers per household. The Senate's more spacious entitlement would pay for most of the cost -- $50 to $60 -- of the converter boxes. But there is Republican rigor in this: Consumers would be required to pay $10. That is the conservatism in compassionate conservatism.
------------
The welfare state run amok!! But they can't have anyone without the propaganda box in their living room. They must consider this a good investment to further the complete ruination of this country. My question is, what do we do with the old TV's? That will produce considerable ecological problems.

Foreign journalists coming *

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Tuesday announced a journalism exchange program sponsored by the State Department's Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, the Aspen Institute and six journalism schools, including UNC-Chapel Hill's School of Journalism and Mass Communication.

The Edward R. Murrow Journalism Program will bring 100 foreign media professionals to the United States to study journalism starting in April. UNC-CH's interim journalism dean, Tom Bowers, attended Tuesday's announcement in Washington.

During the event, Rice took time to express sorrow over the killing of Lebanese journalist Gebran Tueni in Beirut. And despite the Bush administration's recent controversies involving the media, she pointed out the importance of a free press.

"We all know that the bedrock pillar of a free society is a free press and that it is crucial for the foundation of any democracy," Rice said.

****************************

*Scroll down past the stuff all about Robert Novak, the CIA-Plame case, Bush knowing who the leaker is, and all that...

A Journalism Exchange Program! Maybe we can send a few over there to grow some stones. Otherwise we might just be dumbing down the foreign press.

Phase II

Sibel Edmonds

The stories are there, does anyone want to cover them?

Sal #183; You could put all the economists on the planet end to end and never reach a conclusion. Statistics are lies the seem to point to some conclusion or other, it is all a game, not a very nice game either, one day we are going to wake up and find that our little world construct is gone and we have a new world order. Nothing new here move along. Papers!!!

Robert, I read an article about America's apathy towards 9/11. Sibel Edmonds is part of that apathy. I've concluded that people simply don't want to know the truth. There are very intelligent and honest people right on this blog, including David, who believe the official story in spite of the mountain of obvious lies making up that story. Sibel Edmonds has to be kept quiet. If people knew the truth they would feel obligated to get up and do something about it, and that would interfere with Monday night football, or whatever.
WTF, if Faux news says everything's groovy, then it must be true!

THE DEATH PENALTY IN AMERICA

People standing outside said prayers. They sang "We Shall Overcome," although a girl sitting on top of a trailer said, "I don't believe that. I'm not singin'." A Richmond, Calif., reverend began shouting through a megaphone: "I'm tired of singin'! I'm tired of talkin'! Do somethin'! Let's do somethin'!" He marched out to a chorus of amens, hollering and people following him. It was as if everyone decided to leave and follow the one person who was angry and ready for action.

A Native American man on the other side of the street held a large upside-down American flag with a white swastika painted in the blue field of stars. He was shouting at the "white maggots" who had defiled his land, who had oppressed and enslaved his people. He yelled at the blond news anchors below him, "You're all immigrants. This is my land you've been poisoning for the last 500 years." He lighted the flag on fire as a black woman told him he shouldn't do that, that he should have more pride in this nation. He responded that it was time for a "true indigenous people's revolution." Then the white picket fence he was holding onto broke and he fell down the small embankment. Then the people he'd been arguing with lifted him up and asked him if he was OK. "Yeah," he said. "I'm OK."

*****end of clip*****

Change is going to come. I love the passage above for some reason.

capt

Asshole; ass-hole, derived from the ancient Roman word: Nero; the last stop of fecal matter before being deposited on others, to be an asshole,(Hitler) to smell like one and dispense shyt in large amounts,(Bush)

Katrina Vanden Heuvel

Katrina is one of the current eleven foxes on my list. She was on the Diane Rehm show and she said that she could never accept the death penalty. She must also be one of Jesus' disciples. People, I struggle daily to be a Christian. Hearing the merciful words from a variety of Christians and the struggle continues for me to be a true Christian.

Levity aside, I am reposting, ArticleII, Section 1,of the U.S. Constitution. Would this be practical to pursue or am I being naive? In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal, death, resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what officer shall then act as President, and such officer shall act accordingly, until the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

Flan

I will agree that there are some who claim to be Christians who are lead astray or are meerly pretenders.

If there is no greater moral authority, then WHY bother to lead a good life. Without a moral compass we are doomed to anarchy, greed and hatred. That you will equate or name a single person as an indictment of many is poor logic, and greatly flawed. MOST crimminals are not practicing Christions. If they were they would probably not be crimminals. Look at the subject of this original thread... Tookie, did not find GOD until sentenced to die... Most crimminals in following Christ and the 10 Commandments will not Steal, Murder, Commit Adultry, Bear False Witness... Failing these points I doubt they are Christions...

Your statement is true in that prople living in the name of God are not always living for God.

Carol,

Based on you line of reasoning for abortion we should also legalize: Murder and robbery ect.... After all they will still happen, and preventing them is hard on scoiety and impossible to insure...

I cannot accept that reasoning.

Broadcasting executions is a terrible idea. They will become entertainment, a sort of ultimate reality show.

R.

Just a question here:

Are 'snuff" films not illegal in this country?

"That takes alot of heart"...and/or faith

Well, as if we needed yet another reason to abolish capital punishment, the Washington Post reports this morning another story of wrongfully convicted inmates exonerated through DNA.

The case involves two men in Virginia. One was released in 1991 after spending nearly 11 years in prison for assault. The second man has been in prison for 20 years for rape. In both cases, prosecutors, according to the Post had relied heavily on eyewitness statements.

About a year ago, Gov. Warner ordered DNA to be tested "on a small number of biological samples that had been collected in thousands of criminal cases."

And...after finding two innocent men among the 31 newly examined cases, Warner now has ordered an even more sweeping review. Boxes containing DNA evidence from 1973 to 1988 are to be reexamined using the latest DNA technology.

Fortunately for the two saps in the sample, their alleged victims survived. Otherwise they would be receiving their executive pardons in the world beyond. Nothing brings a death sentence quicker in the Commonwealth than a murder linked to rape; and if the victim is White and the accused is African-American, forget about it!

I mean, let's talk about the case of Earl Washington, Jr., an African American male with an IQ of 69. Only days before he was to be executed, former-Gov. Wilder granted him clemency. Virginia law had a ridiculous 21-day rule that barred any new evidence, but new evidence proved Williams was not the killer.

Yep, when Warner said, "I believe a look back at these retained case files is the only morally acceptable course, and what truth they can bring only bolsters confidence in our system," he ain't kidding.

I mean that two of 31 cases or 7 percent, as the Innocent Project noted.

Other than Texas, Virginia leads in executions. But with the recent election of anti-death penalty Gov.-elect Tim Kaine, (who I strongly supported and campaigned for) the work started by Warner will be advanced with DNA testing of Roger Coleman, an innocent man executed in 1992.

Kaine, a man of faith and spirit is the perfect soul to lead the dialogue on this important subject. And with the help of God, capital punishment will soon be abolished.

Matthew 18:21-22

21Peter came to Jesus. He asked, "Lord, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.

In othe words, ALWAYS!

Stanley Williams is dead. I can't help feeling the uselessness of the final act. Did redemption mean nothing to society? Did his contributions to society mean nothing? Some would argue that the execution was a sentence carried out. I argue that it is our society giving no hope to those who redeem themselves, who somehow find their souls. The hope that Tookie brought to others that they might find dignity and redemptions behind bars was replaced by sorrow. He tried to become a better man. He succeeded.