"Who would Jesus torture?
Who would Jesus execute?"

...indeed, Capt!

Thank you, David, for this.

No

State sponsored killing does not just stop at death penalty cases as the events in Iraq have proven. Daily executions are a way of life there and there is no one to commute innocent civilians sentence.

richard ramirez the night stalker has been on death row since being convicted and sentenced to death in 1989, at an estimated cost of $25k/year. a dentist must be brought in to care for his teeth or he would be able to sue for lack of care. some fool woman fell in love with ramirez, and he was allowed to marry her.

there are entire families here in los angeles that some how manage to get by on far less than $25k/year and can't afford to see a dentist, yet ramirez remains alive and well to this day.

I feel torn about the death penalty. I can't help but think that people like ramirez and bundy and all the serial killers that society has produced have got to be seriously ill, mentally. But what do you do? Shoot them like a rabid dog? Charge the taxpayers to keep them alive until death should they part? Give them a lobotomy? How do you treat a sickness like that? What Jesus was able to do and what we are able to do are two different things. If only it was a simple task to "cast out demons," or rewire fried circuits. Two movies that hit me hard were "The Green Mile" and "The Life of David Gale", both dealing with the death penalty and both left me in tears. This is one subject that I have no answer for. Life isn't a movie.

The real mystery to me is the "Pro-Life" stance.

I understand being opposed to abortion, and in that sense being pro-life. But why are so many self included "Pro-Life"ers also in favor of the death penalty? Did they miss the word death in its name?

Thanks for this post David, I totally agree with you. If our society believes that the death penalty is a deterent then the entire process should be televised. Every step the person takes walking down the hall for the last time, up unil the last gasp for breath and followed by the slow-moving (almost a paradox as well) medical team verifying death.

Who makes this decision? The FCC or individual states?

Can you imagine hoping for a "beautiful" and "purposeful" life for the killer of your brother and his wife? That takes a lot of heart. - David Corn

**********

9/11 Victims' Families Begin Long Walk for Peace
by Adam Gorlick

They hit the road Wednesday with little fanfare, and their burden was heavy - 1,400 pounds to be exact.

A dozen peace activists - including several who lost relatives on Sept. 11, 2001 - set out from Boston on a 230-mile walk to New York City, pushing and pulling a granite slab that looks like an oversized tombstone.

The group is hauling its message of nonviolence from the Democratic National Convention here to the Republicans' presidential nominating event at the end of next month.

"Our suffering from pushing this stone is nothing like the suffering of those who have lost loved ones to violence and war," said David Potorti, 48, of Cary, N.C., whose brother Jim was killed in the World Trade Center attack.

*******************

Yesterday, at an address in Philadelphia, in response to a question, aWol allowed that approxamately 30,000 Iraqi citizens have died as a result of our attack/occupation/war which he dated from the date of 9/11/01, when 3000 Americans died.

Were we extracting vengence seven fold, we have extracted an excess; without addressing whether Iraq was the address of the attacker in the first place.

An eye for an eye was considered progress by early judicial reformers.

Bush claims to follow the teachings of Jesus, whose message has come to us be one of forgiveness.

*******************
Cheney: Involved in the low wage slave trade, espionage, and war profiteering. - Wayne Madsen

What was not anticipated by Cheney was that the FBI would step in and arrest Aragoncillo for culling classified information from the FBI's computers at Fort Monmouth. This case, like the AIPAC espionage case involving top Pentagon officials, has been largely ignored by the media. However, along with the Plame case and AIPACgate, all roads lead back to Cheney's office at the White House.

******************************

So David, how's about pushing for that Phase II report?

Or maybe an interview with Sibel Edmonds?

Sal, no matter what, we have to respect human life. Killing is not the States' job. We are our brothers keeper, it is our obligation to be mercifull in our actions.

Iraq: State of the Disunion
An interview with Seymour Hersh
by Scott Horton

Horton: Bush has said just in this last week that he will settle for nothing less than "complete victory," as pressure mounts in both parties for some sort of timetable for American withdrawal. And as this is happening, the Iraqis are preparing to have an election in just a couple of weeks to choose their new government. I wonder what kind of results do you expect from the election and how you think that will compare to what the administration wants?

Hersh: Well, of course, nobody knows nothin'. But with that caveat – by that I mean, my opinion is my opinion and it doesn't make it a fact. I think the administration – as I wrote actually, in the article – is pushing very hard for Iyad Allawi, the secular Shi'ite that was interim prime minister, who's been pretty much in the game as an opposition leader living an exiled life in London. His main opposition is Ahmed Chalabi. Allawi is pretty much the candidate of the CIA, some in the State Department, and some in the White House. They love him because he will do what we want, and if we need someone to give us cover in terms of asking us to leave or asking us to withdraw, or whatever, he's going to be our man. He's also pretty tough. At one point, he was running his own militia. In his career, he's been inside. He has worked very close to Saddam Hussein inside the Mukhabarat Iraqi Secret Army and secret, if you will, the torture police. He's not an amateur at torture and he is not an amateur to bloody operations, but he is our guy. I don't think we will get what we want. I think what we are going to end up with will probably be Abdel Mahdi, who's a member of the Shi'ite coalition. He is now vice president of the country. He lives abroad, he's… like everybody almost everybody around, everybody involved, none of them seemed to have spent their life in Iraq. All have lived abroad, obviously because of Saddam, in opposition.

Most people focus on those being executed, all the bad things they have done, how they don't deserve to live. I will say nothing to defend them, they are scum.

But what does it say about us as a society to condone and advocate killing of others, for whatever reason. It is wrong to kill. Killing more because it is wrong doesn't make it better. It's wrong.

Reflection:

We know now that the torture of al-Libi lead to the misinformation that contributed to our going to war.

We know that Tookie Williams was convicted by testimony given by those who were also facing the judicial system.

We know that prosecutors regularly offer reduced sentences to those who plead to lesser offenses or offer testimony to convict others.

We know that many innocent people plead guilty for minor offences to avoid the expense and risk of trial.

We know better.

DEN, I agree with you. It is ironic that Tookie was executed for murder committed 24 years ago, yet the sharon/bush thugs have been committing murder on a genocidal scale for 3 + years and continue to do so. They can completely ignore all international laws and use any and all weapons and tactics against completely helpless and innocent civilians, yet they are still free to roam. I think about the victims of 9/11, I can see that poor lady standing in the opening left by the plane, she is trapped, she will die. The perpetrators of that crime are living in luxury, waging war on people who had nothing to do with 9/11, who were no threat to us whatsoever, and I will admit, I would not be adverse to seeing those blood thirsty psychos lined up in front of a firing squad and shot right in the face! I will never respect any life that has absolutely zero respect for anyone elses, and is perfectly happy to crush all in the path of their goals. My only comfort is that the day is coming for them, and if I'm still alive I will dance on their graves!

PRESTONSBURG, Kentucky (AP) -- Dottie Neeley, 87, was fingerprinted, photographed and thrown in jail, imprisoned as much by the tubing from her oxygen tank as by the concrete and steel around her.
The woman -- who spent two days in jail after her arrest last December -- is among a growing number of Kentucky senior citizens charged in a crackdown on a crime authorities say is rampant in Appalachia: Elderly people are reselling their painkillers and other medications to addicts.

"When a person is on Social Security, drawing $500 a month, and they can sell their pain pills for $10 apiece, they'll take half of them for themselves and sell the other half to pay their electric bills or buy groceries," Floyd County jailer Roger Webb said.
-------------
Kill the pain, or heat your house. Maybe going to jail is the best alternative. Every morning when I wake up that train is a little closer, a little louder.

Mr. David Corn,

"Can you imagine hoping for a "beautiful" and "purposeful" life for the killer of your brother and his wife? That takes a lot of heart."

That takes more heart and grace than I think I could ever muster. Thank goodness I have never lost anybody to a violent crime.

I do not believe in the death penalty in the abstract as I have never had to face it firsthand. I hope I never have to face such a challenge.

There was a woman who lost her only child to a murderer. A senseless horrible crime. Her husband had passed and her daughter was her only family. She spoke at the sentencing hearing and asked the court to spare the murderer the death penalty. She did not want the mother of the murderer to suffer the same loss she had suffered, not her in daughters name. I doubt I have that much heart.

I think the broadcast of a death of any sort is gruesome but I am a firm believer in everything being available. The viewer must take full responsibility for what they choose to watch. We should have access to everything, good bad or ugly if I do not like something I can change the channel or push the off button.

Another good post!

Thanks

Kirk

Sal, kinda ironic isn't it? Boils down to the old saying; If everybody else jumped off a cliff would you? Others will always kill others, it is a human trait. We can dispense pain as well as pleasure.

Title: Serial Killer Confesses to 30,000 Murders; Receives Applause
Source: Empire Burlesque
URL Source: http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.ph ... tent&task=view&id=337&Itemid=1
Published: Dec 13, 2005
Author: Chris Floyd
Post Date: 2005-12-13 10:53:57

"I done kilt me 10 times as many as old Osama ever done," Exults Bush

From the New York Daily News: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis," Bush said..."I made a tough decision. And knowing what I know today, I'd make the decision again."

Knowing what I know today....that there were no weapons of mass destruction, there were not any active programs for weapons of mass destruction, that the weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed in 1991, that there was no Iraqi link to al Qaeda or 9/11, that Iranian-backed theocrats would come to rule the country with death squads and torture, that by his own (lowball) admission, 30,000 Iraqis would be slaughtered and tens of thousands of Americans left dead or maimed....Bush would make that decision again.

Says it all, doesn't it? Again, by Bush's own confession, the war really wasn't about any of the ostensible reasons he offered before the invasion. Because even if those reasons lacked all substance -- which even Bush now acknowledges is the case -- he would make that decision again.

So what was the war for? Profits. Power. Petrochemicals. And the need of weak, soul-damaged men for violence and death to assert their "dominance" and maintain their illusion of superiority.
------------
This is the evil creature the trolls come here to lavish praise on.

Saladin,

I'm afraid that three hots and a cot is more than many in our society currently enjoy.

I am now listening to the Diane Rehm show and Katrina Vaden Houlen (spell) is her guest. Katrina is as you know one of my foxes to read for patriotic information. capt gave me her name and she was added to my list of foxes.

Spot on, David.

Peace.

"If everybody else jumped off a cliff would you? "

Depends, how high is the cliff and if everybody means everybody then why not?

HA!

capt

Read this morning one in three homeless is a veteran. So we actually treat our convicts far better than our vets.

How can that be? It is just plain wrong.

capt

Capt, Misplaced priorities produce misplaced people.

Regarding Tookie I oppose capital punishment but there are certain acts that should permit the death penalty. I do not have enough information to speak for or against Tookie's death penalty. I can only hope and pray that Tootie's soul was prepared to meet his and our Maker.

Maybe I'm re-posting because I got up on the wrong side of the bed...from the previous thread.

159

Using the "troll" defense as a shield against recognizing that certain bloggers degrade women to try to make their point, is well...not very honorable, IMO. Kaff, thanks for your comments. While I do not expect, nor need, men to come to my defense in this setting (a blog), I do think that the response to Kaff displays his "male intellectual segregation" -- his response is typical of the most privileged segment of the population in America: "white male." I won't go so far as to call it misogyny...but...

"I think you are noticing a great amount of strength and resolve from the men that post here because you will find very few willing to engage in silly name-calling." -- Nice of you to speak for all the fellows, capt!

"Too bad we have a few women that cannot show the same amount of strength and resolve." -- Oh? Thank you, Daddy, for using your paternal/moral authority to keep us in our place.

"To respond to name calling is a troll game - quit playing and they will go elsewhere." He who makes the rules...

"Quit feeding the troll unless you like being called a "c"." Oh, in other words, we get what we deserve, eh?

"...most of us know better and have better manners than to engage a cad." Definition of cad: : a man who acts with deliberate disregard for another's feelings or rights.

So, tell me, are you suggesting that cads should insult women with impunity? On second thought, don't bother.

what WOULD jesus do in regards to the likes of ramirez, bundy, etc.? - I suspect that he and his peers would give john wayne gacy a stern talking to, and would probably allow the "turning over a new leaf" or "repenting of sins". and when that tactic failed, they would probably condone a good stoning. - I'm pretty sure that mother nature would not tolerate serial killers. look at bees; when a bee turns rogue it is destroyed by the other bees. cancerous cells must be excised from the body or they continue to damage the surrounding cells.

NESARA

To implement reformations, five Justices spent years negotiating 'Accords' with U.S. government and other parties. Because the Accords process did not work, the Justices authorized the reformations be put into the form of a law named the National Economic Security And Reformation Act (NESARA) which was passed secretly in March 2000. Secrecy was maintained by revising official records and strict gag orders. News of NESARA came out of U.S. naval intelligence in June 2000.

NESARA was to be announced at 10 a.m. EDT on 11th September, 2001. The attacks on the World Trade Centre occurred just before 9 am that day.

^^^^^^^^^^6

yet more connecting of 911 dots

Murder is always murder, even if done by the State. I have never understood how revenge can help bereaved families find closure. I suspect that in the long run it allows them to quell their anger, but it cannot help them elaborate their loss. It must delay their need for finding peace because they have to identify with the same violence that carried off their loved one. I would oppose the death sentence even for the arch-mass murderers in the White House.

There is another point to make here: Liberal ideology always identifies the individual as the source of merit or blame. S/he is the responsible one. I believe society should share the blame for having produced a killer. Why was nobody there to protect the little boy or girl who later became a delinquent when s/he was growing up resentful, deprived and lonely? Legal executions are a ritual by which society can say, “Look, it was him/her, not me that did it.”

I wrote this letter to the governor of California this morning:

Dear Mr. Schwarzenegger:

This is a comment on your having permitted the execution of Stanley “Tookie” Williams. I deeply regret that you have chosen to associate your legacy with death and revenge. I suppose you perceived that you would obtain some short-term political advantage from this. But history will only remember your impoverished sense of humanity. The great names like Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King are those that will be remembered with affection by your grandchildren.

Micki,

As long as they post anything they like, if not responding is impunity then yes. Come on rise about them, you are better than they are. I know this is true.

If they address an interesting issue or show some common respect they deserve to be addressed, not the other way around.

That is just why opinion. I do not even claim to be right, just opinionated. I think you know that.

Why would anybody care what I opine? Cerntainly no reason to get curt.

You seem to always think I am talking down, I apologize, that is never my intention. I am challenged to express myself clearly. My limitation(s) should not bug you, I have too many to let that happen.

capt

Micki,

As long as they post anything they like, if not responding is impunity then yes. Come on rise about them, you are better than they are. I know this is true.

If they address an interesting issue or show some common respect they deserve to be addressed, not the other way around.

That is just why opinion. I do not even claim to be right, just opinionated. I think you know that.

Why would anybody care what I opine? Cerntainly no reason to get curt.

You seem to always think I am talking down, I apologize, that is never my intention. I am challenged to express myself clearly. My limitation(s) should not bug you, I have too many to let that happen.

capt

"Murder is always murder, even if done by the State."

That really says it all.

capt

ADD:

On the death certificates of death penalty victims is homicide.

(it was either victims or recipients)

capt

Mode of death - or whatever. You know what I mean.

What would Jesus do? answers here

Oops, sorry Jesus, Here

American Soldiers

American soldiers are being killed like flies for Bush's lies. To date 2,396 American soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

OF COURSE, NONE OF THEM WAS GOING TO GET SHOT AT. NONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER TO THE MOTHERS AND FATHERS OF DEAD SOLDIERS AND MARINES. GENERAL SCHWARZKOPF

DON'T PATRONIZE ME WITH TALK ABOUT HUMAN LIVES. COLIN LAPDOG POWELL

It sounds like human lives are not important to Lapdog.

There is no sense trying to make sense from those who have no sense!

Wolfowitz + World Bank = War + Poverty

As Diebold goes, so goes the election!

American democracy is dead as we know it. We are now OUTSOURCING our dead American democracy around the world with our dead and maimed soldiers who are fighting in foreign lands so these lands can revel in our dead democracy.

My fellow Americans, Bush does not view our Constitution as a piece of paper. He views our Constitution as a piece of toilet paper so he can wipe his ass with it.

PEACE TAKES COURAGE!

Oops, Sorry Jesus!

(What did Pres. Bush say when he finally realized that he is responsible for AT LEAST 30,000 dead innocents.)

Oops, Sorry Jesus!

(What did Pres. Bush say when he finally realized that he is responsible for AT LEAST 30,000 dead innocents.)

Scratches head, wondering how that double post happened....

...having gotten the error message, hit back and cut the text out of the box....

...hit refresh and noticed my post wasn't there...

...pasted it back in the box and hit post...

...and it is there twice!

Must be Devine Intervention...

...or something.

capt -- I did not "feed the trolls" -- yesterday, I posted my opinion about the value of visuals in telling a story adequately and forcefully. The "troll" as you call him, is the one who came out from under his and inflamed the discourse with the c-word.

Frankly, IMO, you were insulting to suggest that it was I who cast the first aspersion. What I posted yesterday was in the same genre as that which David examined thoughtfully in his post about broadcasting Tookie Williams' execution -- the power of visuals, done in our name, with our money.

Should the "troll" surface and call David names? If he/she did, you'd probably be the first one to defend David. So be it.

Saladin, (#14)

I haven't seen it myself, but I am told it is becoming neccessary to test people who are being treated with narcotics for chronic pain for the prescribed medications.

At the same time, it is becoming more common for doctors to prescribe twice the dosage needed for MANY medications so that fixed, low or no-income elderly can halve their daily meds and pay far less for their presciptions.

It is a practical, if somewhat ethically questionable assistance that a doc can offer. It falls flat if the patient is selling off half (or ALL!) of their meds.

-T

Sorry, should have been...

"I haven't seen it myself, but I am told it is becoming neccessary to test people who are being treated with narcotics for chronic pain for the prescribed medications...TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE TAKING THEM!"

-T

Miplaced priorities produce misplaced people? What does that mean to you DEN? Try thinking the other way around. People come before situations. Those soldiers who are now homeless as a "result" of war did not come as a result of their priorities during the war then and the war now is a priority because it is their Commander in Chief's priority. The majority are over there because they are actually trying to do some good in their eyes and there are people who are happy they are over there. Are there truly people that naive to think that the rules of war are about murder? Maybe it is because that death is all you see in the media and people can't help themselves but to believe it all and continue to feed the lies with no merit.
Was WWI and WWII murder on behalf of the United State too? And yes, I can agree that we went into this war on false pretenses, but are there not a majority of people who will come out of this no longer tortured and persecuted? Read some books on the subject- pre-and post-war.

Good one Robert! Divine intervention indeed! Gotta laugh to keep from crying, happened to me yesterday when posting.

The double post is the blog liking the content so much . .

I do the same. I get an error, I back, refresh, I have even opened a new window and no post shows, then I post and there are two of them.

I am a bit scared of the 30k number, I get a gut feeling the number is not as high as he would like it to be.

A kind of bloodlust thing.

capt

"you were insulting to suggest that it was I who cast the first aspersion"

Never intended any such thing and certainly not am insult? I know the troll came out of nowhere and posted the insult.

I never said that, never thought, never meant to sugest anything that you did was wrong?

I was addressing the post from Kaff?

capt

Is Jesus Liberal?

I cannot say whether or not Jesus is a liberal. I have tried to study Jesus and His life and I have come to the conclusion that Jesus loves the sinner but not the sin.

Of all the sins that are committed Jesus had great affection for harlots. He loved them more because women during Jesus' time on earth had very tough lives. A woman was considered below a man's possessions and his children. If a woman's husband died, she was at the mercy of the husband's family and her family to be taken into their home and helped. Many women were not accepted and they were left on the street to survive by themselves. Some became harlots.

Children of a dead father were more readily accepted because they could do the work and much of the work was hard labor so the children had some value. Their mothers had to fend for themselves.

Micki,

It was Kaff that said "where art the gentlemen"? And said the guys always piled on the troll for such things.

I was in complete agreement with your post about the visuals. I had not seen where you posted to the troll so, you were not even in the equation until you jumped in to it?

Just sayin'

capt

PS - Still all apologies, just the same. I never had you in mind when I was writing the post.

I agree, lets publicize executions... and lets use better methods, hanging or the Gullitine... quick and gristly. Lets also have the penalty carried out within 3 years of conviction. Handle all appeals at once and eliminate all the legalistic jargon appeals. Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure.
I will agree to end all executions so long as you, or someone, will vouch for their good behavior and back it up with your property and liberty.
A murder whose sentence is commuted can later be accidently released or pardoned, and go on to commit more crimes. A person who has been put to death cannot. Amazing thing about executed murderers, they never commit another violent crime.

National Socialism

#43, CO, I was directing attention toward the misplaced priorities of the leadership currently in office. We don't have to look too far for examples; The Katrina aftermath management, more like MISmanagement resulting in failure to care for the most helpless among us.

America is really spreading theocracy and not democracy to other nations.

Making the World Safe for Theocracy

Byrd Warns Frist Against 'Nuclear Option'

By JESSE J. HOLLAND
The Associated Press
Monday, December 12, 2005; 5:32 PM

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia said Monday he doesn't expect Democrats to filibuster the nomination of Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito, but he still chastised Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist for threatening to stop any such effort through a drastic parliamentary effort that has been dubbed the "nuclear option."

"If he ever tries to exercise that, he's going to see a real filibuster if I'm living and able to stand on my feet or sit in my seat," Byrd said in a Senate debate with Frist, R-Tenn.

"If the senator wants a fight, let him try it," said Byrd, the Senate's senior Democrat. "I'm 88 years old, but I can still fight, and fight I will for freedom of speech. I haven't been here for 47 years to see that freedom of speech whittled away and undermined. "

*****end of clip*****

Go big Byrd!

capt

America is really spreading theocracy and not democracy to other nations.

Making the World Safe for Theocracy

Where do ya'll get your information on the reason for war from??? Not a single concern about the occupation in Serbia, but a nation that had attacked others, flounted the UN and sponsored terrorism against US citizens was unjustified. Saddam HAD weapons of mass destruction and was ordered to destroy them as part of Desert Storm peace negotions. He never lived up to his end so we should have been back MUCH sooner. He had 10 years to show that he had completed what he was supposed to do in 1 year, and he never bothered to. Chemical weapons WERE found, YELLOW CAKE was found, banned weapons WERE found, TERRORIST were harbored, trained and funded. Clinton, Albright, Dashel, Briton, France and the UN all agreed there were still weapons of mass destruction in Saddams possession. THE WAR WAS AND IS JUSTIFIED!!! Stop dishonoring our soldiers and our nation. We won the war, now we are dealing with crimminal elements... just like after WW2. It is a long hard road and we must be resolute.

PS: Pro life people can support the death penalty because an adult CHOOSE to commit a crime for which execution was a possible outcome. Aborted babies have committed NO crime.

Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure. Elton

A trial is the way we determine guilt. It is by definition a "legalese procedure." It is also by no means infallible. It is "legalese procedure" that helps avoid/mitigate the convictions of the innocent.

Amazing thing about executed murderers, they never commit another violent crime. - Elton

And how many have died in the names of the executed?

In Jesus' name?

Or perhaps, in the name of Archduke Ferdinand?

saladin & hajji 14 & 41 ~

regarding pain and prescribings::

Blame The Patient!

the official justifications for the war in Iraq have been many ~ and there are just as many unofficial justifications ~ what REALLY dishonors the troops? our pointing out of corruption/complicity at a govt. level? or the fact that some U.S. troops STILL don't have adequate body armor, and their V.A. benefits are being yanked out from under them? or how about the fact that many of the Iraqi insurgents are using Israeli equipment?

James,

My (middle) brother is both an M/S sufferer and now, a cancer patient.

Most of the docs I know are extremely careful with what they prescribe, not because of fear of DEA investigations, but simply that the trust factor between a doc and patience is so often abused. (by BOTH, of course!)

All ER docs have been fooled into prescribing unnecessary meds simply because the largest part of a diagnosis is based on what a patient tells them. Symptoms that get you presciptions for narcs and pretty easy to fake. ER Docs prescribe pain meds in small amouts, just to get someone by until they can follow-up with another doc.

Unfortunately, those docs are often as backed up and pressed for time as the ER docs.

I don't know any answers to the problem but can talk about examples of bad docs and bad patients all day.

(but not today, since I've got to go in to work now!)

later...

-T

Fitzgerald was long suspicious Rove had hidden evidence; Not swayed by last minute testimony, lawyers say
Jason Leopold and Larisa Alexandrovna

[...]In late January 2004, Fitzgerald sent a letter to his boss, then acting Attorney General James Comey, seeking confirmation that he had the authority to investigate and prosecute individuals for additional crimes, including obstruction of justice, perjury, and destroying evidence. The leak investigation had been centered up to that point on an obscure law making it a felony for any government official to knowingly disclose the identity of an undercover CIA officer.

Comey responded to Fitzgerald in writing Feb. 6, 2004, confirming that Fitzgerald had the authority to prosecute those crimes, including “perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.”

Fitzgerald was concerned that Rove had hidden or destroyed evidence, lawyers close to the case tell RAW STORY. His suspicions may have been right: an email he sent to then Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in early July 2003 later proved Rove had spoken to Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper about Plame—a fact that Rove omitted when he was first interviewed by the FBI.

Whether Fitzgerald knew in late January or early February 2004 about the existence of the email Rove sent to Hadley remains unknown. The email did not show up during a search ordered by then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales in 2003. Gonzales enjoined all White House staff to turn over any communication about Valerie Plame Wilson and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a vocal critic of the Iraq war who accused the Bush administration of twisting prewar Iraq intelligence. Gonzales’ request came 12 hours after senior White House officials had been told of the pending investigation.

Hadley did not respond to repeated requests to comment. Calls placed to the National Security Council were dropped by press office aides.

More.

"Legal proceedings under way in certain countries appear to show that individuals were abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal assistance procedures," Council of Europe rapporteur Dick Marty told a meeting of the body's human rights committee on Tuesday.

The Swiss senator said the results of his investigation lent credibility to reports that the CIA flew terrorist suspects to and from secret prisons in Europe.

"The elements we have gathered so far tend to reinforce the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees -- outside all judicial procedure -- in European countries," he said.

The rapporteur "demands immediately that all member governments fully commit to uncovering the truth about flights and overflights on their territory in recent years, by aircraft transporting people arrested and detained outside of any legal procedure."

What is good for General Motors is good for...

...India...

Anne Penketh - A war and its fearsome consequences:

How the world has changed post-Iraq
President Bush said yesterday that 'the year 2005 will be a turning point in the history of freedom'. But since the start of the war the days have been littered with unintended consequences.

I don't agree with the death penalty, but I am also wary of people who have committed horrible crimes. Locking them up forever is a costly affair, and killing them is obviously wrong. I thought maybe prisons could enclose some fields and let the prisoners grow their own food and build their own houses so we would not have to support them. Then I thought maybe we should use all that money that goes to fund the prison system to PREVENT these criminals from ever surfacing in our society. A person that grows up with love and happiness is highly unlikely to become a serial killer. One who grows up in an abusive, sadistic, hate-filled home is quite likely to become a criminal. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" rings true here. Best to deal with the problem before it even starts.

hajj, I have ms too and I can't imagine having to deal with cancer as well, so your brother has my sympathy ~ but my docs are cool guys and allow me to set my own dosages ~ I hate narcotics/pain meds because they seem to be quite habit forming so I avoid those like the plague, but I can see how important they are to other patients ~

High Level Officials Warn Of Fake Terror

A variety of current and former high-level officials have recently warned that the Bush administration is attempting to instill a dictatorship in America, and will itself carry out a fake terrorist attack in order to obtain one.

duh.

David's suggest would not have the effect that he hopes. It would indeed coarsen our culture and would eventually immunize Americans to the horror of executions.

Televising executions would not force people to confront their pro-death penalty views -- you've all seen pictures of fetuses in various stages of development; has this made you all pro-life on the abortion issue? Is anyone here advocating televising abortions so pro-choice advocates could confront their views? Would you watch it if you could? Would you want your kids to watch it? The truth will set you free, right?

The people who want to watch executions are the same ones who like violent video games and movies. They don't care about guilt or innocence, they just want the visceral thrill. I know from file-sharing programs that a great many people enjoy looking at "Faces of Death" and other clips of gruesome footage. The 9/11 clips are also extremely popular downloads. The people in these clips are not convicted criminals--the idea that "he deserved it" would make the watching even better. Pass the popcorn!

Why did TV stations show the 9/11 planes hitting the building over and over and over? Why did we all see the Rodney King beatings 50 times? I make a point not to watch TV news but I saw these clips constantly because stations ran them every 15 minutes as PROMOS. The networks would love David's suggestion--and not because they're against the death penalty.

Seeing Rodney King get beaten over and over didn't not make me more and more against police brutality. It had the opposite effect. Eventually the clip became "normal" and ceased to elicit any kind of emotional response.

David takes a cavalier attitude about exposing children to executions. Remember that parents who oppose the death penalty would also have to monitor what their children watch. And TV stations know a goldmine when they see it -- the first execution would be played as news teasers ad nauseum (pun unavoidable) for weeks.

One thing that televising executions would definitely do is confirm to the rest of the world that Americans are bloodthirsty barbarians. The TV ratings would reinforce this view.

Guilty or not guilty is the deciding factor, not legalese procedure. Elton

A trial is the way we determine guilt. It is by definition a "legalese procedure." It is also by no means infallible. It is "legalese procedure" that helps avoid/mitigate the convictions of the innocent. Robert Schwartz

So, do you agree that once the trial is over and appeals ended based on guilt that justice be served or are you for the neverending appeal process... You failed to put forth any conclusion, simply parroting my statement with an obvious statement.

And how many have died in the names of the executed?
In Jesus' name?
Or perhaps, in the name of Archduke Ferdinand?

Which executed are you asking about? Lots have been killed in the name of Jesus. The assination of Archduke Ferdinand was a reason quoted by Germany for beginning a world war... Did you have a point or are you just freeform postulating?

Pro Life -- Kill at a minimum of 30,000 Iraqis, 2100+ American men and women, 1000 prisoners on death row (since re-enacted), starve and let drown the poor in N.O.L.A, bomb abortion clinics, and attempt to save one 'dead' girl in Florida.
auto transport

Pro Life -- Kill at a minimum of 30,000 Iraqis, 2100+ American men and women, 1000 prisoners on death row (since re-enacted), starve and let drown the poor in N.O.L.A, bomb abortion clinics, and attempt to save one 'dead' girl in Florida.

yet still lagging behind the MILLIONS murderd in abortion clinics, and by the murders on Death Row.

(#53 Capt - Byrd warns against Nuclear Option)

Watch this on C-Span if you get the chance.

Byrd was indominable. Frist was plying the "give Alito a dignified hearing and an up or down vote or the majority will resort to the nuclear option" argument.

Byrd said the constituion does not give a nominiee the right to an up or down vote (he challenged Frist to identify the language in the constitution that affirms the right of a nominee to a senate vote). Byrd explained how the so called nuclear option is anethema to freedom of speech in the Senate. Byrd said that if he chose to fillibuster it would be for a damn good reason then he called out Frist's record on a cloture vote a few years back when Frist voted against cloture thereby affirming the rights of the minority.

I wish more Dems showed the guts this guy has.

So, do you agree that once the trial is over and appeals ended based on guilt that justice be served or are you for the neverending appeal process... You failed to put forth any conclusion, simply parroting my statement with an obvious statement. - Elton

Let us start with your 'justice be served' comment. Execution of a prisoner is never considered justice in most of the civilized world. Americans may just be a little behind the curve here, but as Martin Luther King Jr. observed, "Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." So let us start at the place where we determine that society has the right to remove dangerous individuals from the street, but not to execute them in cold blood.

Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality.

And far better an infinite appeals process than an innocent executed.

Did you have a point or are you just freeform postulating?

Violence begets violence.

"I wish more Dems showed the guts this guy has."

No doubt!

He is very keen on the constitution. I wish all of the politicians would just listen to him he is a wealth of information.

He has been right on many of the most important issues.

Not enough like him. Few are even close. *sigh*

capt

The Woman

Maybe you are aware that the military service has recalled a woman in her 40's to active duty. The woman is concerned because she does not know who will take care of her child. This woman has not served in the military for twenty years. It appears that once a person serves in the military, you will always be vulnerable to serve in the military until you turn 68 years of age. With this kind of treatment we see endless wars under Bush and his cabal.

I weep as an American at least daily for my America. I also cry to my God, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken us?" In a whisper God answers me, "I have not forsaken America; America has forsaken me." I have also asked God, "When God will you return to America?" God remains silent to my question. Most people are aware that silence is tacit approval of what is happening to and in America. God has given us a free will and with a free will comes consequences. As long as America turns her back on God, Americans cannot expect God to be with them at their beckon call. God needs to hear from us with an open and loving heart. Americans need a conversion in their hearts.

I also weep for the fact that this 2005 Christmas will be our last Christmas as free Americans. The 2006 election will have more evil and devil's disciples elected to the House and Senate. With the new Congress in January, 2007 there will be a reinstatement of the military draft to fight Bush's endless wars as cannon fodder. All we are for Bush and his cabal are cannon fodder. We will always be cannon fodder for the evil that permeates across America.

There will be some unrest in America and with this civil unrest we will be controlled by America’≥ goons and thugs. Americans will be placed in some unknown prisons and they will be tortured and killed. Americans will soon learn that in order to survive you must play the game. Men and women will learn to fight and once they are in harm's way for wrong and immoral wars, there will be more fragging of CO's in time of war. Fragging will occur at a higher rate than during the Vietnam war. Fragging is the release of grenade under the seat of a CO and it explodes. Fragments from the grenade dismembers human body parts. You will see a leg go one way; an arm goes another way; eyeballs will be plucked from the eye sockets; and the head will roll away from the body.

I continue to weep for the fact that there will be no 2008 elections with our loss in democracy and our freedoms from these Patriot Acts that control our lives. Bush will declare martial law before the 2008 elections and he will suspend the elections. Under the war powers act of 1947 and 1949 the President does have this power and since Bush craves to be a dictator, he will utilize these acts in 2008.

Let me wish everyone, especially Cornposters, a Merry Christmas and enjoy it while it lasts because this will be America's last Christmas as free Americans.

yes we should be allowed to see how our public funds are used and more importantly if it is neccessary for our state to go to war we should be able to stomach looking at the results of our actions. How many dead bodies of military and civilians have been shown on american TV??? Shock and Awe sounds like some great fireworks display but it obviously mangled the bodies of innocent civilians which were never shown on our airwaves.
Outta sight Outta mind, so hopes the powers of the state

The death penalty is contrary to the principles upon which our justice system was founded... let ten guilty men go free rather than wrongly convict an innocent man.

It is clear that our justice system finds innocent men guilty. Look no farther than the record in Illinois where under Gov Ryan, journalism students from Northwestern U found over 100 death row inmates were wrongly convicted of capital crimes WRONGLY CONVICTED. When the sentence is death, the state has failed to protect both the LIFE and the LIBERTY of innocent people.

Life in prison is an adequate safeguard for society and the lifelong loss of LIBERTY is an adequate penalty for capital crimes. The idea that a sentence provides sufficient revenge is unfortunately an American value but it has no place in a civilized society. There is no evidence the death penalty is a deterrent.

Where in the Constitution is the right to fillibuster spelled out?
It is not. The fillibuster is based on a Senate rule that can be changed at any time, and this in no way infringes on Free Speech... He can speak out all he wants, and no part of GOVT will shut him down, but that does not mean he can break the rules of the Senate.

Maybe Byrd is forgetting the basis of the Rights under the Constitution...

Execution is an easy way out for a murderer. Watch any prison movie and imagine being locked up like that, surrounded by horrible people. What better punishment than fearing for your life day in and day out. Plus it's a lot cheaper, too.

George Galloway MP: Elements Within Government Using Terror Provocation Tactics

Previously Mr Galloway has suggested that there is a very real danger of the government engineering a situation where terror attacks can be manufactured and seized upon to forward the pre-planned agenda abroad and at home. On Friday Mr Galloway elaborated on these comments

"I 've already mentioned this hideous character Richard Pearle. I saw him the other day actually snarling 'you're next', threatening people with American military power, a man who couldn't punch his own way out of a wet paper bag, but ready to fight to the last with other people's last drop of blood. These people make my blood boil and they ought to make every right thinking person feel that way. We deserve better than to be governed by these gangsters."

Mr Galloway went on to describe how it is always the elite draft dodging spoon-fed weaklings that strive for this kind of dominance over all, sacrificing the lives of others whilst swaggering around in their own bomber jackets playing up to the act.

Elton,

There is not a man (or woman) alive who is more familiar with the U.S. Constitution, and the Rules of the Senate, than Robert Byrd.

As the Rules of the Senate now stand, according to Rule 25.1.n:

(1) Committee on Rules and Administration, to which committee shall be referred all proposed legislation, messages, petitions, memorials, and other matters relating to the following subjects:

(B) Congressional organization relative to rules and procedures, and Senate rules and regulations, including floor and gallery rules.

So according to the Rules, to change the rule, one must first go to the Rules Committee.

Furthermore, as Sen. Byrd so eloquently pointed out, he will filibuster the attempt to change the rule.

Neither the constitution nor the senate rules require an Up or Down vote for judicial nominees.

Senate rules accommodate the filibuster.

The majority threatens to change the rules unless they don’¥ get something not provided for in the constitution or the Senate rules. The majority has no respect for the rules of the senate. The operative principle of the CURRENT majority is "The ends justify the means."

#67 "One thing that televising executions would definitely do is confirm to the rest of the world that Americans are bloodthirsty barbarians. The TV ratings would reinforce this view."

Much of the rest of the world already has that view of us -- no need for TV ratings to reinforce the view.

When Americans saw the first abuse/torture photos from Abu Ghraib, most of them were horrified to see what was going on in our name -- and they began to demand answers. They began to pay attention -- close attention. The photos disappeared from the "radar screen" and their horror dissipated right along with the disappearing photos.

I stand by my post yesterday regarding showing the horrors of bush's War of Choice in DYING COLOR -- I also take very seriously David Corn's words "But the obvious response is that government, in general, should not be engaged in conduct that cannot bear full exposure. We can make rare exceptions for, say, true national security secrets, but not for matters of taste."
__________
yelnats and kaff, from the previous thread: Your words, too, are apt and compelling.

#75 and #78 -- Hear, hear! (Here, here!)

Pop quiz:

By Evan Derkacz
December 13, 2005

It took Tylenol (a brand of acetaminophen) quite a while, and not a bit of money, to recover from the deaths from tampering a few years ago.

If you switched to aspirin, naproxen sodium, ibuprofen, cold compresses or drinking less you may have made a good choice.

Unadulterated (i.e. regular, not tampered-with) Acetaminophen turns out to be the leading cause of acute liver failure in the U.S.

Revere writes:

"This has been known for a few years, but the general public (and many health care providers) remain unaware of it. The 'therapeutic window' (the difference between a safe and harmful dose) is narrow and the drug is found in many different formulations (an estimated 200), often labeled non-aspirin pain relievers. Thus it is relatively easy to take several different over-the-counter and even prescription drugs (e.g., Percoset and Vicodin) that have acetaminophen in them and exceed the maximum recommended daily dose..."

This has been a public service message from Peek (via the knowledge base of Effect Measure).

Let us start with your 'justice be served' comment. Execution of a prisoner is never considered justice in most of the civilized world. Americans may just be a little behind the curve here, but as Martin Luther King Jr. observed, "Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." So let us start at the place where we determine that society has the right to remove dangerous individuals from the street, but not to execute them in cold blood. Robert Schwartz

Sounds nice... How are you going to vouch for their behavior? I will suppor this if you will vouch for their behavior, also, I dont want to foot the bill.

Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality. Robert Schwartz

Already done in the US, but GREED and HATE will still exist... More so as we take God and Religion out of the public eye.

And far better an infinite appeals process than an innocent executed. Robert Schwartz

No concern there, By definition they are not innocent, they have been found GUILTY.

Violence begets violence. Robert Schwartz

True, so when they do violence they should have violence done to them? or are you espousing the Wonderful (but totally impractical) belief that leads to: All required for EVIL to succeed is for Good People to do nothing.

Do you also believe in the absurd notion that WAR (violence) has never solved anything?

Filibuster and Cloture

19th Century Filibuster

Using the filibuster to delay or block legislative action has a long history. The term filibuster -- from a Dutch word meaning "pirate" -- became popular in the 1850s, when it was applied to efforts to hold the Senate floor in order to prevent a vote on a bill.

In the early years of Congress, representatives as well as senators could filibuster. As the House of Representatives grew in numbers, however, revisions to the House rules limited debate. In the smaller Senate, unlimited debate continued on the grounds that any senator should have the right to speak as long as necessary on any issue.

In 1841, when the Democratic minority hoped to block a bank bill promoted by Kentucky Senator Henry Clay, he threatened to change Senate rules to allow the majority to close debate. Missouri Senator Thomas Hart Benton rebuked Clay for trying to stifle the Senate's right to unlimited debate.

Three quarters of a century later, in 1917, senators adopted a rule (Rule 22), at the urging President Woodrow Wilson, that allowed the Senate to end a debate with a two-thirds majority vote, a device known as "cloture." The new Senate rule was first put to the test in 1919, when the Senate invoked cloture to end a filibuster against the Treaty of Versailles. Even with the new cloture rule, filibusters remained an effective means to block legislation, since a two-thirds vote is difficult to obtain. Over the next five decades, the Senate occasionally tried to invoke cloture, but usually failed to gain the necessary two-thirds vote. Filibusters were particularly useful to Southern senators who sought to block civil rights legislation, including anti-lynching legislation, until cloture was invoked after a fifty-seven day filibuster against the Civil Right Act of 1964. In 1975, the Senate reduced the number of votes required for cloture from two-thirds to three-fifths, or sixty of the current one hundred senators.

Many Americans are familiar with the filibuster conducted by Jimmy Stewart, playing Senator Jefferson Smith in Frank Capra's film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, but there have been some famous filibusters in the real-life Senate as well. During the 1930s, Senator Huey P. Long effectively used the filibuster against bills that he thought favored the rich over the poor. The Louisiana senator frustrated his colleagues while entertaining spectators with his recitations of Shakespeare and his reading of recipes for "pot-likkers." Long once held the Senate floor for fifteen hours. The record for the longest individual speech goes to South Carolina's J. Strom Thurmond who filibustered for 24 hours and 18 minutes against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

*****end of clip*****

A little background on the filibuster/cloture issue.

capt

THE CLEANED UP FOR GRAMMAR VERSION IN THE NEWSPAPERS:

"Frankly, it is probably part of my own fault for needling people, but it's a myth to think I don't know what's going on," Bush said. "And it's a myth to think that I'm not aware that there (are) opinions that don't agree with mine. Because I'm fully aware of that."
_____________________
THE ACTUAL VERSION OF WHAT HE SAID ON NBC NEWS:

“It’s a myth to think I don’t know what’s going on. And it’s a myth to think that I’m not aware that there is opinions that don’t agree with mine. Because I’m fully aware of that.” – President Bush, during an interview with NBC News.
________________
Dumbing down America, one dumbass president at a time....

thx Cap #86.

Tomgram: Dahr Jamail on the Missing Air War in Iraq

As 2004 ended, one TV journalist wrote me:

"My own experience of Iraq is that while we're all constantly aware of the air power, we're rarely nearby when it's deployed offensively. Perhaps that explains why we don't see it. One does ‘®ear' the airpower all the time though. Fighters and helicopters used to protect convoys; helis shipping people back and forth to bases, or hunting in packs across towns; AWACS high up. I've even watched drones making patterns in the sky. So why don't we film it?"

It's a question that still hasn't been answered -- or even asked in public.

*****end of clip*****

Seems to me the media are not doing their jobs by not reporting and showing the damage we inflict. If it is such and noble cause and we are doing the right thing the public will offer the same support they are now. Why would they not want to broadcast the bombing and fighting as it is all so glorious that we spread freedom and democracy from the air.

capt

Al Qaeda in Iraq?

Recently the theory of the Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein connection has been trotted out, once again, like a lame trick pony at the circus. Those who seek to advance this thoroughly discredited and unproven point are, once again, falsely claiming they have at last got the smoking gun. I presume they believe that if they repeat a lie often enough, it will become truth, a sort of arrogant "create your own reality".

But, as with so much of the other "proof" for our invasion of Iraq, it is nothing more than a string of allegations, accusations, rumors, deceitful juxtapositions, half truths and unproven theories all very short of anything remotely resembling evidence. Most of these allegations rely on unconfirmed meetings that allegedly took place between Iraqi officials and Al-Qaeda operatives. None of these allegations offer substantial proof, such as the actual exchange of WMD between the two parties or even the faintest symbol of tacit support from Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda operatives.

This oft repeated tactic, of throwing politically partisan handfuls of fairy dust in the air, labeling it proof positive and then smugly proclaiming "case closed" has become rather shopworn. These arguments, devoid of critical analysis, study or review should serve only to discredit those who offer such faux logic, as well as those who deceive themselves into believing that this in some way is a reasonable substitute for supporting ones case with hard facts. Fantastically, those who would dare to challenge these outright lies and disinformation with the truth are accused of re-writing history, as though the partisan self-serving statements of politicians not only create their own reality but serve as the official account of our nation.

*****end of clip*****

Baathism and Al Qaeda fundamentalism are radically opposed to one another.

capt

Elton,

Let me start by congratulating you. You appear able to carry on a conversation without resorting to personal insult. This is a rarity around here, amongst those who post contrary views.

Sounds nice... How are you going to vouch for their behavior? I will suppor this if you will vouch for their behavior, also, I dont want to foot the bill.

I have no responsibility to vouch for anyone's behavior but my own. Society has the right to deprive the offender of liberty, why should I need to personally vouch for anyone else? Don't want to foot the bill? We can argue about priorities, but do you accept that collective security requires financing?

Already done in the US, (Then I would go further - society has the responsibilty to ensure that our neighbors have sustainance and shelter, and to try to preclude the conditions that breed criminality.) but GREED and HATE will still exist... More so as we take God and Religion out of the public eye.

THAT's a laugh, as Katrina has so powerfully illustrated. Also, many of the bible-thumpers appear to this agnostic to be the the greediest bastards around, not to mention the quickest to vengence.

No concern there, By definition they are not innocent, they have been found GUILTY.

Presumes the infallibility of our Judicial System, if you are concerned, at all, about the actual guilt of the individual, rather than the defined pronouncement of an human endeavor.

Do you also believe in the absurd notion that WAR (violence) has never solved anything?

Define 'solved.' It has certainly led to the horrific conditions exhibited in much of the world. It is a condition that deserves transcending. To remove the scourge of war is the raison d'etre of the United Nations.

#64 Goob said... Locking them up forever is a costly affair, and killing them is obviously wrong.

You summed it up well my friend. It's such a troubling subject, and people are pulled in all directions on it. Killing is wrong, but life in prison w/o parole is a tough alternative too. The costs of confining people with that sentence are huge. It has to be super secure for one thing because these are people with no hope. Think about it. whatcha gonna do, put me in prison? ha? They have no reason to obey any orders, no punishment worse than they already have to encourage good behavior. These are the worst of the worst and have to be literally walled off from the general prison population and each other...and little if any contact with guards. Kill a guard that he don't like... why not, ain't nuttin they can do to me for it! See what I mean? Some people calling for this alternative senctence to the death penalty don't always think of the big picture. A life sentence with even a slight chance of parole is still better than 'no parole', in my opinion. There's been innocent people executed so deterrent or not, my opinion is... it's wrong. What's the answer? That's a hard mo/fo to figure out, but we need to do something.
*dang, I wish we had a better topic

here is an attack piece on david corn

A Mole In The Progressive Movement?

I will point out that mole or not, whether corn agrees with my views or not, he has not prohibited me from continuing to post my opinions about 911 being an inside job.

click my name to order the FREE DVD:
'CONFRONTING THE EVIDENCE: Reopen 911'

Class act James.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. People who are hard wired (like Bundy, who escaped twice and killed a 12 yr. old girl while escaped)really need to go. It those cases, the death penalty is a deterrent in that the particular individual won't have the opportunity to kill again. Dangerous serial killers? Child killers? bye-bye.

One of the problems is the unfairness of the system. Cold killers (O.J.) who can afford good lawyers get off scott free while most on death row had public defenders. My favorite movie about the topic: "Dead Man Walking"

HI 2 ALL!!

I'm against the Death Penalty for many reasons; Dallas County(TX) sentenced Randall Dale Adams(70's) and Joyce Ann Brown(80's) to die, but their convictions were overturned and were set free. Clarence Brantley was also sentenced to death in the Houston/Conroe area. Sentence was overturned and Brantley was set free.

I've known personally, over 50 people who were murdered in my 43yrs on earth. Friends like Charlie Jones III, Fred Monk, Gene Tutt, James&Marcus Brooks, Charles Specks, Barbara Strong, Renee Parker, Monotya Wells, Millard"Choc"Davis, and many others, and I'm still anti-Death Penalty, because you can never say that the right person is excecuted every time. There are some procecutors who withold evidence just to fortify their conviction rates&records, so when one decides to run for public office, they can say, "Look at my conviction rate, it's 92%. I'm tough on crime"

On Democracy Now, Houston Chronicle reporter Lise Olson wrote a series of articles about the case of Ruben Cantu, from San Antonio who was sentenced to death for alledged murder-robbery at 17yrs old, and excecuted in 1993 at age 26. Cantu may have been innocent after all.

Life Without Parole should be the maxiumum sentence. Inmates should do hard labor, build the prisons, grow their own food. No watching t.v. and playing cards in the dayroom all day. This could cut costs a lot.

Also, the mentally ill shouldn't be placed in prisons with the General Population. State mental hospital funding has been drastically reduced. Many mentally ill persons could be housed in those facillities as in the past, but prison construction, privately-owned prison units, and food service contract kickbacks are "The New Thing". Unfortunately, the prison-industrial complex keeps on going and going... They say, "to hell with teen crime prevention programs,drug treatment centers, and community service programs for Class B and C Misdemeanors that keeps jails from overcrowding with people who commit petty crime.Gotta keep that recidivism rate high so all of my homeboys can get some contracts&kickbacks"!

The Death Penalty hasn't been a deterrent to crime at all.

That's how I feel, you dig?

ha~salute

That's MONTOYA WELLS. Sorry my brother!!

I too think the quality of the discussions, especially disagreements, have improved. Let's keep it up!

The Economics of Capital Punishment

Contention:
Sentencing a prisoner to life in prison is a better allocation of resources than sentencing him to be executed.

First I'll present figures representing the dollar costs of capital punishment versus life in prison/no parole. Then I'll discuss the deterrent effect as the only legitimate rational justification for capital punishment. Then I'll discuss the externalities of capital punishment.

*****end of clip*****

"Locking them up forever is a costly affair"

It costs us more to execute than to warehouse the "lifers."

The highest cost to the penal system is from non-violent offenders sentenced by "mandatory minimums."

Murdering the murderers is flawed logic and circular if all are held to account. Why should the state commit a crime to punish a crime?

I agree with Carol "Execution is an easy way out for a murderer."

The Kkkristo-fascists should consider the death penalty as ending the righteous punishment here on earth to send any repentant to heaven. Seems like more a gift.

capt

A time will come when a politician who has willfully made war and promoted international dissension will be as sure of the dock and much surer of the noose than a private homicide. It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not stake their own: H.G. Wells

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Don't ever let them pull you down so low as to hate them. (also cited as: I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him.) Booker T. Washington

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The soul of our country needs to be awakened . . .When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders: Veterans Fast for Life

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If we work in marble, it will perish; if we work upon brass, time will efface it; if we rear temples, they will crumble into dust; but if we work upon immortal minds and instill into them just principles, we are then engraving upon tablets which no time will efface, but will brighten and brighten to all eternity: Daniel Webster

===

Thanks ICH newsletter!

Robert Schwartz,

Thank you... I enjoy the discourse and try not to slander too much... I have truly been enjoying this discussion (even as my BP soars).

I would agree that you bear no responsibility at present, but all of society bears this burden/cost. If you want my support then my cost/burden must be alleviated, hence someone must be willing to insure these people behave if they are allowed to remainin our society. Even locked up they are a pary of society and can impact it. I will accept that collective security requires financing, but will minimize the cost in some areas so that more resources are available to others. Locking up murders is lowest on my priority list.

So, after Katrina what? GOVT failed at all levels, but where were the individuals and community leaders. They sat back and waited where they should have seen to their own safety. Most thought there was little danger, and that was their choice. Dont wait on others to take care of your family... That is each parents responsibility.
I will agree about the BIBLE thumpers, but they are not GOD, and do not inspire morals and proper behavior.

No, they have been found guilty buy a court of LAW, and by definition this is the basis of GUILT/JUSTICE. I never said the system was infalliable, but it is the best there is in the world. IN A YEAR: If 1 innocent person were put to death by the state it would be a terrible thing. If NONE were put to death by the state and 6 people were murdered by those that should have died, which is worse? I would prefer 6 alive over 5 alive... No system is perfect but there are consequences on both sides. I believe that few if any innocent people would be executed by our justice system, where as many/most murder victims are innocent.

The UN is a huge failure. Disolve it now.

War is terrible, but it is the only way to stop agressors and to stop intollerable behavior.

sup Bro Tex?!!!

On Democracy Now, Houston Chronicle reporter Lise Olson wrote a series of articles about the case of Ruben Cantu, from San Antonio who was sentenced to death for alledged murder-robbery at 17yrs old, and excecuted in 1993 at age 26. Cantu may have been innocent after all.

Yep, that case has been in the news here alot lately. The only evidence against him was the eyewitness testimony of the other victim that didn't die. Cantu had evidence that he was back in San Antonio that day, but the jury believed the survivor. Turns out that survivor now says he was coerced into that testimony. Seems he was an illegal alien and din't wanna be sent back to Mexico. The detectives held that threat over him and continued to give him chances to pick the 'right' suspect from photo lineups. Guess who's picture was the only one in each lineup?
Detectives wanted Cantu because he wounded an off-duty/civilian clothed policeman in a pool hall argument. Those can be and are tough places to hang out, and shyt happens, but he didn't know it was a cop and it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. If challenged, or called out, you respond... or run like hell. Machismo and street cred tend to make that last option obsolete if you wanna 'have respect' in the 'hood. It's all fk'd up maaaan. Cantu's 'fall partner' didn't go to bat for him either. Shyt man, let them execute him and I'll get off with just a prison sentence. So what if he's innocent, it helps me!
Now,after all those years, the wounded survivor speaks out, that he didn't think it was Cantu that shot him and killed his friend!
Cantu, locked up at 17 for a crime he didn't commit,and executed 9 years later.
Texans and their thoughts... oh well, we'll try better next time. yeah right!

# 102 "So, after Katrina what? Govt. failed at all levels, but where were the individuals and community leaders"?

You apparently missed Charmaine Neville's compelling and hair raising story about rescuing elderly people (via boat) trapped in their homes, stealing a bus, driving them to safety, all the while fighting with rapists and thugs. There are hundreds of stories about community leaders and individuals who demonstrated bravery and heroism. Why do you and others continue to blame Katrina victims for their plight? Total lack of compassion.

Bro.tex,

I dig!

Do not be such a stranger.

Great post BTW!

Best to all

capt

Nice comments BROTEX,

The Death Penalty is a deterrent when done in a timely fashion. 10 years after the fact is too far detached. Needs to be carried out within a year of conviction.

You can never be sure you have the right guy... but you can never be sure. Should we quit trying? The time they loose when locked up incorrectly can never be replaced, just like their life cannot be restored. Would you advocte NO punnishment?

The people you quoted as being set free, I am not familiar with their cases... Were the real perps caught or were they released on technicalities like witnessed died or could not remember small facts 10 or 15 years after the fact?

One person said: "Why should the state commit a crime to punish a crime?"
What would this individual advise. It is also a crime to hold a person against their will. Would we not even bother to lock up crimminals.

Another claims it cost more to Put a Crimminal to death than to lock them up for life. I disagree. It only cost a few dollars to execute a person: poison, a rope, a knife, a club have all been used in past history for a cost of next to nothing. The cost is in all the safeguards we place aroud it to help keep a innocent from being executed. By streamlining this process we can greatly reduce the cost.

A fascinating discussion which, like most, can be resolved by a Heinlein quote to wit...

"It may be necessary to kill a man, but to incarcerate him destroys both his dignity and yours."

"War is terrible, but it is the only way to stop aggressors and to stop intolerable behavior."

Um. . . er . . we are the aggressor in Iraq.

The UN is a world body created as a forum to resolve differences between nations without going to war.

War is never the answer unless the question is "how can we kill a bunch of people?"

War is the result of failed diplomacy not an extension of successful diplomacy.

"One is left with the horrible feeling now that war settles nothing; that to win a war is as disastrous as to lose one. " ~ Agatha Christie (1890 - 1976), Autobiography (1977)

capt

I watched a prison movie just the other night. Three black guys sentenced to prison because their prints were on a gun used in a hold up. What was that quote, Capt? You can judge a nation by it's prisons? Well, that quote is quite accurate.

Elton, you better hope you never get framed, is all I can say. Ever peered out from behind the bars of a cell? ... depending on others to 'make things right'? I bet you wouldn't be in such a hurry to dismiss the safeguards.

From the link at #100:

Punishment, except when used in the context of rehabilitation, is nothing more than revenge. Wrongdoers accept punishment as a requirement for rehabilitation into society. For those who pose a danger to society and are not candidates for rehabilitation, as would be the prudent view of murderers, some type of confined exile would be the appropriate rational course. For example, for the act of first degree murder, I would not argue with society's right to exile an individual for life in solitary confinement. This action would accomplish the goal of protecting society, as well as lessening the dollar cost and the numerous negative externalities of the present capital punishment system.

Regarding the controversy over deterrence; one might reasonably infer that capital punishment might, depending on the state of society at the moment, have a deterrent effect, have a brutalization effect, have no effect, or have a retaliatory effect. For example in a totalitarian regime, killing a police officer may be viewed by those that oppose the regime, as being a necessary act. To execute the perpetrator of this act may induce others with similar views to retaliate with like action.

The death penalty is not a good act. No one could watch an execution and say, "this is a good thing". And, as I have shown, it is not a necessary thing.

So what is it?

It's just pure vindictiveness on the part of an irrational mob. It's the action of a hypocritical egotistical social paradigm that perceives its value system as the absolute authority in determining justice in the universe. It's a system whose actions conclude that "might makes right".

If you think that the gang of state strapping a woman down to a table and injecting poison into her veins isn't an evil act, then you, your God and your entire belief system are crap. If this is not evil in your social paradigm, then your society is crap.

The gang of state executed Jesus Christ.
The gang of state executed 5 million Jews.
The gang of state virtually exterminated the native American.

On and on and on...

The abuses of power, by the gang of state, are innumerable and indescribably heinous in their abuse of humanity.

And, you continue to enable this abuse...