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August 30, 2005John Roberts: Who Cares About His Syntax?...Plus, Yesterday's Posting Was a TrapI posted the below piece in my "Capital Games" column at www.thenation.com. If you've seen it already, please scroll down to other scintillating items.. I am tired of hearing about what a witty and irascible character John G. Roberts Jr. is, how Roberts, George W. Bush's nominee for the Supreme Court, is such a sophisticated--if curmudgeonly--cut-up. There have been numerous newspaper stories that depict Roberts in such terms on the basis of the memos he penned when he worked for the Reagan and Bush I administrations. Yesterday The New York Times front-paged a cute account of Roberts' penchant for proper punctuation. It noted that twenty-three years ago, when he worked for White House counsel Fred Fielding, Roberts was taken with a letter written to the White House because its author, an octogenarian lawyer concerned with an obscure jurisdictional matter, had quoted Plato and Webster and used the word "slumgullion (which means thin stew). This correspondent, Roberts declared, deserved a reply. What a fellow that Roberts! I'm more concerned with the content--not style--of his memos and a decades-long trail that shows Roberts has usually favored a narrow reading of rights (such as the "so-called" right to privacy). These memos also suggest he has a tendency to put his intellectual arrogance at work for a political agenda. One memo he co-wrote in 1985 shows that Roberts was not shy about interjecting his own view into policymaking, even if that view had no basis in fact. In this September 13, 1985, memo, Roberts, who was still in Fielding's office, wrote about briefing materials that had been prepared for President Ronald Reagan. The material covered several subjects including the dispute over admitting children with AIDS into public schools. Roberts wrote: The third bullet item contains the statement that "as far as our best scientists have been able to determine, AIDS virus is not transmitted through casual or routine contact." I do not think we should have the President taking a position on a disputed scientific issue of this sort. He has no way of knowing the underlying validity of the scientific "conclusion," which has been attacked by numerous commentators. I would not like to see the President reassuring the public on this point, only to find out he was wrong later. There is much to commend the view that we should assume AIDS can be transmitted through casual or routine contact, as is true with many viruses, until it is demonstrated that it cannot be, and no scientist has said AIDS definitely cannot be so transmitted. I would simply delete the third bullet item. Here Roberts was not being merely prudent. Believing he knew best, he was substituting his uninformed opinion for the scientific consensus. Three years earlier, the Centers for Disease Control had declared, "Airborne spread and interpersonal spread through casual contact do not seem likely." And weeks before Roberts wrote this memo, the CDC--after several years of additional research--had noted that children with AIDS attending public schools posed an "apparent nonexistent risk of transmission." The CDC noted that "casual person-to-person contact, as among schoolchildren, appears to pose no risk." At that time, Dr. Martha Rogers, an epidemiologist at the CDC's AIDS branch, told the media, "The reasons I've seen given for keeping [children] out [of public schools] are not very good reasons. We're trying to educate people as to the real transmission modes." Apparently, Roberts needed such educating. Instead of sticking to the known facts and heeding the word of government scientists, Roberts thought he knew better, and he was willing to substitute his own judgment (which happened to coincide with that of Reagan supporters who were arguing against allowing kids with AIDS into public schools) for the informed conclusion of experts. Yes, this was an isolated episode. But so was Roberts' excitement over the word "slumgullion." But perhaps this is evidence that Roberts will fit in well with the Bush administration's science-doesn't-matter attitude. I doubt that such decades-old musings of Roberts will persuade all Democratic senators to oppose the Roberts nomination. But it should not take a gotcha memo--if one does exist--to persuade Democrats to vote against him. Roberts is clearly a fellow of a strong conservative bent. Democrats can argue that the courts have moved too far to the right and simply declare enough is enough. Instead, there is a sense that the Roberts opposition must uncover a smoking-gun item to push the Democratic senators to stand as a group against Roberts. And let me pass on this bad new for progressives: so far, no troubling rumors have emerged for anti-Roberts investigators to chase. There will be tough questions hurled at Roberts during his nomination hearings: about his skeptical view of privacy rights, about his previous opposition to Roe, about his apparent fondness for executive power, about the ethical issue raised by a meeting he had with Bush administration officials about his possible appointment to the Supreme Court when he was about to rule on an important case in which the administration was a party. None of this, though, carries the potential to derail the nomination. But why should anyone worry when Roberts is such a dedicated grammarian? I demand that George W. Bush's daughters, and his eligible nieces and nephews, serve in Iraq to prove their support of Bush's 'noble war for a noble cause.' If the Bush family does not believe in 'sacrificing' for the war and is not willing to put their lives on the line, then Bush must bring the troops of middle class and poor Americans home now. I think this is a bit harsh. I propose the following amendment: "This petition does not apply to any Bush family member of service age who publicly states that he or she thinks the war in Iraq is nuts." And I have a question, does this mean that Billy Bush has to leave the perilous field of entertainment reporting and file stories from Fallujah? At least 47 people died in two U.S.-led air strikes in the western Iraqi town of Qaim near the Syrian border on Tuesday, a Qaim hospital official told Reuters. Mohammed al-Aani said 35 people died in one house and another 12 in a strike on a second house. Earlier, the U.S. military said it had killed an al Qaeda militant named Abu Islam and a number of other fighters in air strikes on Karabila close to Qaim. The U.S. military gave no details of the total number of casualties. As I've watched cable news today I've seen no mention of this, but loads of coverage of Hurricane Katrina, which may have caused the death of 50 to 80 people. [UPDATE: It looks as if the death figure will climb higher, especially given that Biloxi and Gulfport have been wiped out.] Brutal as Saddam Hussein's reign had been, the scope of the Iraqi government's killing in March 2003 was not of the exceptional and dire magnitude that would justify humanitarian intervention. We have no illusions about Saddam Hussein's vicious inhumanity. Having devoted extensive time and effort to documenting his atrocities, we estimate that in the last twenty-five years of Ba'th Party rule the Iraqi government murdered or "disappeared" some quarter of a million Iraqis, if not more. In addition, one must consider such abuses as Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers. However, by the time of the March 2003 invasion, Saddam Hussein's killing had ebbed. Second, just as the situation in Rwanda and Iraq were different, so were the proposed interventions. In 1994, human rights activists who were calling on Clinton to intervene in Rwanda were not asking for a full-fledged invasion of Rwanda that would be followed by a US occupation. They were requesting more modest steps: jamming radio broadcasts, assisting the UN force already there, kickass diplomacy. (They essentially got none of this.) Nine years later, Bush and his crew refused to consider any other form of intervention but invasion and occupation. He dismissed the inspections--which we now see actually worked--and refused to weigh other military options, such as forced inspections or military attacks against suspected WMD locations. With Bush, it was the whole shebang or nothing. Others--including myself--were advocating actions in between those polar opposites. So there is nothing inconsistent in saying the United States should have done more (that is, something) in Rwanda but should not have invaded and occupied Iraq. Different problems require different solutions. But too many partisans, blinded by loyalty to Bush and his war, cannot see such simple nuances. Fortunately for them--and unfortunately for the rest of us, they are well-represented in Washington. Posted by David Corn at August 30, 2005 04:00 PM | ||
Comments
Once again, Americans suffer a calamity and our president runs away from the trouble. Residents of southcentral United States battle flooding while the commander in chief speaks in sunny California.
Posted by: jerry dice at August 30, 2005 04:08 PM
Mr. David Corn,
HA!
Good one.
Thanks for another real good post.
Kirk
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 04:19 PM
Getting Bush relatives to oppose the war serves TWIN purposes. It shows the hypocrisy of Bush and his supporters, and it forces reality into the debate.
Very clever trap on Rwanda.
Posted by: Tuba Les at August 30, 2005 04:46 PM
A trap, eh? Very sneaky.
Poverty level rose to 12.7% Love that ownership society!
Was I hallucinating when I saw emperor Bush eating cake and playing guitar today? Louisianna could really use the 35% of its National Gaurd stuck in the Iraqi Quagmire right now.
I have the Bush bots tied up in the previuos post. I will try to keep them there as long as I can.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 04:51 PM
Well, David, if "trolling for trolls" is a sport, you've earned a gold medal.
Now that you've trapped 'em, what do you propose we DO with 'em?
-T
Posted by: Hajji at August 30, 2005 04:53 PM
Great so now we need to keep on eye on you too? Just when I was beginning to think that you were going to maintain some kind of journalistic ethic, good going so now we can read your words and wonder if you really mean all of that? Next stop Fox show? You are the rest of the fourth estate should start to wonder if we can't trust you why are you getting paid? I know I do.
Posted by: What the F**k at August 30, 2005 04:55 PM
They are still in there. Im gonna ask Tim L. to join the army again.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 04:56 PM
Hajji,
They are American trolls after all so we feed them clothe them and offer some professional mental health therapy.
capt
PS - Put down the rope and step away from the burlap sack.
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 04:59 PM
I still got Tim, in the other post feeding me John Kerry qoutes. He still won't tell me why he doesn't join the Army.
They are beyond help, capt. I doubt they require any economic assistance either. They are feeding on our poor by supporting the Emperor.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 05:07 PM
Capt,
Protein is protein. Katie got the Keys gig, so we're planning a big Bar B Q. Even Troll will taste great with some of the Carolina's finest vinegar based sauces!
-T
Posted by: Hajji at August 30, 2005 05:12 PM
Alright I am tired of "wack a troll". Those idiots may figure out there is a new post soon.
Farewell my friends. Lets hope that the emperor will stop playing PR games and get to helping the people who got slammed by the hurricane. Be back later if any trolls require wacking.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 05:15 PM
Well David isn't a hypocrite, he is ANTI-WAR period. He was AGAINST the Afghanistan war to remove the Taliban and al Qaeda, even after they murdered 3,000 if our fellow citizens.
He states that he was against the Afghanistan war b/c of civilian casulties!?!?
So I guess that means he would have been against WW2? Thank God no one that thinks like him will ever be in power as CIC!
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 05:30 PM
Hey David,
It would have been a little kinder to state out front that you wanted to argue the difference between Rwanda and Iraq. However, it did provide for much banter back and forth and therefore was thought provoking, which was your goal, I assume.
I am not confident at all that the Roberts appointment will be contested at all, much less very vigorously. He will be confirmed with no problem, unfortunately.
Sending the Bush twins into combat would do more harm to the people around them than is worthwhile. I suggest that they be put in some sort of grunt work job states side instead. They'd still be supporting the war effort. Not like I think there should BE a war effort, but since there is one already, the least they can do is peel some potatoes - no wait - KBR got that gig - oh well, they could do SOMETHING, I'm sure.
Posted by: flan at August 30, 2005 05:31 PM
I think there was a high cost in band width and scrolling time paid for the "trap."
I repost from the end of the previous thread to punish you. ;-)
My, my what incredible amounts of old, stale and previously utterly, repeatedly vanquished troll slop are being deposited in here. Some of it is funny, in an ironic way. Citing Egyptian intelligence? The Egyptians claim they had a spy in Al Qaeda and gave the Bush administration repeated warnings of the plans to use aircraft well before 9-11, which warnings the US ignored. Medal-bearing George Tenet sent Hosni Mubarak a letter begging him not to express publicy Egypt's opposition and puzzlement over the invasion of Iraq. Mubarak's answer in the press?
"When it is over, if it is over, this war will have horrible consequences," Mubarak told Egyptian soldiers in the city of Suez.
"Instead of having one (Osama) bin Laden, we will have 100 bin Ladens," he added.
Maybe some Bush administration apologists could relieve the cerebral constipation induced by blind loyalty and too much Limbaugh/Drudge/O Lielly et al, if they could just start by admitting (12 step program fashion) that the invasion and occupation has made us less safe. Then maybe all other diversions and crazy retrospective rationalizations would fall away, and a dialogue could start about what to do. But this administration is all about acquiring and maintaining power first, and therefore has not and will not ever admit a mistake, much less a lie, even when lives are lost and destroyed and national security is subordinate. It's criminal and amoral.
Check out the picture and caption here to be reminded why: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0331-01.htm
Posted by: Riff at August 30, 2005 05:36 PM
Riff!
I almost reposted your #14! I am glad you did. Hardly punishment.
A real good post deserves to be reposted!
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 05:38 PM
Hajji!
Party time.
Congrads!
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 05:41 PM
"12 step program fashion"
OR a two step program six times, dosey doe!
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 05:43 PM
CIC?
C - Coward
I - In
C - Crawford
Good one, I needed a chuckle!
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 05:44 PM
Riff, post #14:
Just b/c Egypt was against the Iraq war doesn't mean they could not have intelligence indicating Saddam Hussein had WMDs. To give you a perfect example, Russia indicated Saddam Hussein had WMDs, but was still against the war.
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 05:45 PM
Well, I just got through the last thread. Same shit from the bushbots. And TJ was especially entertaining. Instead of asking me what I meant by my statement he launches into a tirade and flings accusations. And not very interesting ones either. Now can you see why it is a waste of time to argue with bush supporters? Logic has no place in their strange fantasy world where only war waged by a self proclaimed republican is worthwhile. I guarantee that if any dem was responsible for what is happening in this country right now they would sound a roar that would shake the heavens!
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 05:47 PM
CAPT= Canadian Immigrant Pro-Terrorist!
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 05:51 PM
"Logic has no place in their strange fantasy world"
Saladin, I think you just described yourself!
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 05:55 PM
Capt, Have you wondered why the lamestream media has been virtually ignoring Capt. Trips? I saw that article earlier, BTW thanks, it has me wondering, what about the rest of us? It's in Europe and Finland? And the Codex will soon make vitamin supplements nearly impossible to obtain. Think they're trying to tell us something?
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 05:55 PM
Tim, why have'nt you joined the Army?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 05:55 PM
Well, Tim L, you're jsut gonna have to face up to your own cognitive dissonance/cerebral constipation. Egypt/Mubarak is credible or it's not. Russia/Putin is credible or it's not (read his remarks aimed at the US on the horrible school incident). US policy under Bush has been consistent or it has NOT. UN rsolutions and its charter all matter, or none matter. And so on, and so on. Start with the easy one, though - that Iraq was a mistake no matter what you think anybody else believed before 2001 inside or outside the US. It just might provoke a breakthrough, and I'll be first in line to extend a cyber handshake. Until then - TTFA a Tigger would say.
Capt: I'll try not to become a pompous idiot a la Antoine if you complement me! Speaking of humility, maybe you can kindly turn my link live as well as this one: http://www.bringthemhomenowtour.org/
I want to encourage folks to get out for this if they can. We've offered to put folks up at our place for the stop in Dallas, though maybe too late. Gotta go. Cheers, folks.
Posted by: Riff at August 30, 2005 05:56 PM
Tim, you can ignore me now, that is what I will do to you. You are the same gullible idiot you were a year ago. Bye Bye now.
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 05:56 PM
No smoking gun on Roberts? What about the blatant conflict of interest in not recusing himself from the decision on executive power-- at the same time he was interviewing for the Supreme Court appointment? Or did he figure that deciding in favor of the President was just doing what it takes to get the promotion?
Posted by: Daniel Fleisher at August 30, 2005 05:57 PM
I quote from myself on post 163 on the previous thread:
Capt;
I wonder if that was a demonstration for us amateurs. Obviously when it comes to troll bait, David is packin' and we're not.
Still David don't you think this is a little scary?
Posted by: John Benson at August 30, 2005 06:00 PM
I have been asking you for months now, and you still have not answered my question. I told you I would be more than happy to gaurd your precious greed pile for you while you support the invasion of Iraq.
It is a simple question Tim.
Because the administration you so blindly supported LIED to us and so severely misplanned the war nobody will join up. They need people like you, Tim.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:00 PM
Saladin can show you how to print up your own enlistment forms.
Are you a log cabin republican? Don't ask don't tell!
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:03 PM
Riff, let me ask you a question.
Can someone oppose the Iraq war, but still believe Saddam has WMDs?
Even if Saddam had WMDs, I doubt that would mean much to you Leftists anyway, hell you guys barely supported the Afghanistan war to take out the Taliban and al Qaeda! Maybe about 30% of people on this blog that oppose Bush actually support the Afghanistan war.
So let me put it in simple terms for you:
Russia and Egypt believed Saddam had WMDs, but were still against the war.
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:05 PM
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
dubya
------------
This guy is a f**king psycho! He sure has solved the problem in the middle east, hasn't he?
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:05 PM
Saladin,
Capt. Trips?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:06 PM
It is pathetic that the best you can do is to call captain "pro-terrorist" never mind that Immigrant begins with I, and not A.
Why must people resort to the "you are an America hater" card when someone disagrees with their political machinations and desires?
Isn't being American all about being able to disagree and compromise?
Sounds to me like you would prefer living in the old USSR where you are told what to think, what to wear, who to like and dislike and stand in line for your bread and vodka. No need to bother with those "other people." Or Hitler's Germania, just round up those you disagree with (or fear).
I take it Tim L. that you have pureblood in you? Which American tribe did you descend from that you are not also, an immigrant? And why would an immigrant be a bad thing?
Posted by: J-dub at August 30, 2005 06:06 PM
Tim,
It was a very simple question, Tim. You still have'nt answered me. Are you a chickenhawk?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:08 PM
Tim L.
This is a joke isn't it?
CAPT= Canadian Immigrant Pro-Terrorist!
I see the pictures of the guy at Camp Not-Casey with the "Get a brain morans" sign and think it's staged. You are pulling our legs aren't you?
Posted by: John Benson at August 30, 2005 06:08 PM
Corky, the Bush administration didn't lie to us, they were just wrong. Can't you see the difference??
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:09 PM
Riff?
I have never had anything except compliments for you. I may not say it often enough but you ROCK!
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 06:09 PM
No John, I am not kidding. Capt has openly admitted his hatred for America.
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:10 PM
Been told 3 times at least about his spelling gaffe and still doesn't see it.
There are so many jokes to tell about that.
But why bother?
Posted by: J-dub at August 30, 2005 06:12 PM
That whole "America hater" bullshit is really wearing thin. Difference of opinion, free speech, and debate are what America is all about. Trying to stop neoconservative's from destroying America is the direct opposite of hating America.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:13 PM
J-Dub, I get it, but Capt has made it clear that he hates America.
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:14 PM
Capt trips, "The Stand" Stephen King.
I was born here and am a patriot. No little troll can define me.
"what about the rest of us?"
We are not the elite. We are on our own.
I will not tax the thread by re-posting the flu stuff but here is a good collection:
http://www.legitgov.org/flu_oddities.html
capt
Corky - check your MSN mail? I sent you a little on the hyperlink.
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 06:14 PM
Tim, you have'nt answered my question. Bush was the one that lied. We were the ones that were wrong for trusting him.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:15 PM
corky, are you asking ME if I am a log cabin republican? You know how I hate labels! I am a fiscal conservative among other things. I tried to get the army forms for you but the WRH website is having problems. James, if you pop in can you help out?
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:17 PM
The troll is a proven liar. Proving he lies again. *sigh*
Like such statement is a dincere discussion? PLEASE.
Ask for a reference for me saying I hate America.
There is none, I have never express such flop.
That, my friends is my exit queue.
Good day all,
ciao
capt
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 06:17 PM
Most Corn-fans seem to think anybody, and everybody, who support action to take out Saddam is wrong -- and thus a troll. Strange definition, but consistent with echo-chamber "burn the heretic" sort of enforced group-think. "start with 'Iraq was a mistake'". OK -- how will we know? How many will die in the next year, next 5, next 10? Or how else will a mistake be measured? In US lives lost? Iraqi lives? Both? Against what alternative? (Saddam for life, without sanctions?...) "President-for-life" Mubarak of Egypt, (personal?) recipient of more US aid money than anywhere else after Israel (and for the same "Sinai & Peace for US cash" deal), has allowed the state controlled press to criticize the Egyptian gov't. (see Big Pharoh) Iraq getting elections & a constitution (OK with me if they vote no; I'd prefer an Oil Trust for all Iraqi people. Also districts rather than Party List parliamentary style.) Lebanon too; and Ukraine & Georgia. Bush's invasion of Iraq, demonstrating willingness to use American power for good, should get a lot of credit. I start out, booting Saddam was good. Was it worth it? (How much was it worth?) So far, yes.
Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at August 30, 2005 06:19 PM
capt.
That book scared the crap outta me. Have you read any of Kings' Gunslinger books? They are tied in with The Stand. His best work.
If I hated America, I would sit idly by and watch it be destroyed.
Me not know this "hyperlink" word. I can barely figure out how to check my email without help.
I see a pattern of those who rabidly accuse others of the things that they are guilty of.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:20 PM
Okay Capt, prove you're a patriot:
Do you want Iraq to become a democracy, even if that means Bush's plan will succeed?
Do you believe that al Qaeda, and al Qaeda alone was responsible for 9/11 and not the Bush administration?
Do you believe that the Iraqi insurgents(terrorists) are freedom fighters?
Do you believe that we should capture or kill Abu Musab al Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden?
If you answered no to any of these questions, they you are anti-American.
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:20 PM
And yet, my friends encourage more by posting to the trolls?
I will return in the small hours when the insults are sleeping.
Posted by: capt at August 30, 2005 06:22 PM
Tim L.
Let me put this into a formula I think you'll understand. Imagine you are watching a horror movie, all the teenagers have done whatever preliminaries are the in order and our now at the scary house. The nerdy ones say, "I don't think we should go in." To which the cool, macho ones respond with taunts and insults. We're well past the point were some one from the brain trust has suggesting splitting up. Can you predict what will happen next? Plenty of us opposed to the war in Iraq could, and I think it's revolting that we could and the folks in the administration couldn't.
Posted by: John Benson at August 30, 2005 06:23 PM
Correction: question #3 should be answered YES
Another question:
Did America Deserve 9/11?
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:23 PM
Corky, I agree, The Gunslinger is King's best work, I loved the ending! please e-mail me, the link from my name is real.
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:27 PM
I believe America is a place were people are free; free to be different and live together despite thier differences. Free to be gay. Free to be Christian. Free to be Muslim. Free to have whatever culture they want. Free to agree or disagree with whoever or whatever they want.
To call someone an "America hater" just because they might disagree with your particular narrow philosophy is the most unamerican action imaginable. Therefore anyone who calls another an "America hater" for having a different opinion must hate freedom. An America where there is only one religion, only one philosophy, or only one opinion is not America, land of the free. Just another case of a person accusing another of something that they themselves are guilty of. I have seen too much of this pattern of behaviour in recent years.
Tim, why have'nt you joined the Army?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:31 PM
Serious Question:
Who in here OPPOSED America's action against al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan??
Posted by: Tim L at August 30, 2005 06:34 PM
Saladin,
Have you read all seven books? I loved them! The ending was pretty wierd. I like how he ties them in to some of his other books. Putting himself in the book was strange.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:35 PM
9/11 was an INSIDE JOB : Everything else is a Distraction, The BRAINWASHING of the American people
Freedom Underground | 29 Aug 2005 | Mike Eggleston
FreedomUnderground.org
August 29, 2005
We are 2 weeks away from the 4 year anniversary of 9/11. And still NO one in the mainstream media as even addressed the TRUTH about that horrific day. It doesn't matter to them that it can be proved that the buildings fell because of controlled demolition and not from the planes hitting the buildings. It doesnt matter that there are countless witnesses including WTC workers and FDNY and NYPD officials who heard the explosions and saw the bombs going off.
There are countless US government and Officials from around the world who have come out and blown the whistle that it was an inside job. That certain factions of the US government helped and allowed it to happen.
The tragedy of that day was used as a pretext to war, and to further the agenda of the global elite. The alternative media has EXPOSED it for what it really was. The US government can't even show any solid evidence to back up their wild conspiracy theory that it was 19 Muslims from the caves of al queda. There is however "OPERATION NORTHWOODS" a US government plan to do the exact same thing with terrorists using box cutters, but that has been ignored. The Government's "proof" is a 571 page ommission of facts, and fabricated evidence. Not by an independent investigation, as that would have taken away valuable resources from the so called war on terror. But instead by a panel put together by the criminals in charge. A complete and utter whitewash. They have released none of the video camera's from the pentagon area. The only frames available to the public were leaked and clearly show NO boeing 757. The witnesses have all been silenced.
We are faced with so many distractions via the Mainstream Media. If you tune into FOX or CNN there are so many distractions that you forget what the previous story was when you are done watching it.
Its all a ploy. Its all mind control. And now with multiple TV shows about the Governments official story and 3 Hollywood movies coming out to further brainwash the public we are being bombarded with their version in the wake of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Yes, we are engaged in a war and that seems to be the top story. But we were decieved into that war. We were told they had weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist. We were told of ties to 9/11, which didn't exist. We were told Iraq was a direct threat to the US security, which it was not. Lies , Lies and more Lies.
Daily, more and more people wake up to the truth about 9/11. But the fact is everything else is secondary. We cannot forget and allow them to get away with the lies and the deception. We must demand accountability. The #1 issue must be the truth about that day. We cannot get distracted and allow the truth to be swept away under all the other issues. They do not matter compared to what was allowed to happen and why.
We must raise our voices. We must resist the facism being installed because of this day in our history. We must NEVER FORGET, and allow the people behind it to walk free and wage endless wars for endless profits in the name of freedom and terror. If we do , we have sacrificed everything this great nation stands for. The constitution has already been shredded....what are we going to do about it?
-------------
Dissent is patriotic. Swallowing every lie the govt. dishes out is not.
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:36 PM
Serious
Question:
Tim, if you support this war so much, then why have you not joined the Army, instead of wasting your time harrasing us?
1 800 USA ARMY
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:37 PM
Tim L. You really should read what Robert puts up links to. I'm pretty sure your eyes won't catch fire. We already discussed this today. I don't know any body (and I mean anybody) who thinks America deserved this besides Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. So no, I don't think we deserved this. Do I think people could use the actions of our Government as an excuse to kill Americans? In a word yes.
Posted by: John Benson at August 30, 2005 06:38 PM
corky, I started reading them 20 years ago. It was a long wait for closure. I thought they were awesome!
Tim, why don't you go catch Osama, the big, bad boogeyman that kicked our ass! Idiot.
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:39 PM
It is a very simple question Tim.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:44 PM
Sometimes the simplest questions are the hardest ones to answer.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:48 PM
Saladin, where do you get the enlistment forms?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 06:50 PM
Sigh. The forces of ignorance, apathy and arrogance close around us. A democracy works when people know what's going on, give a damn enough to think about making the world a better place, and act on accordingly. I still run into Bushbots every now and again, and I wonder why they still support him. I am familiar with two common responses: "he's got an (R) next to his name", and "he's the president". These responses demonstrate that they don't know what's going on (ignorance is bliss), they obviously don't give a shit about the world (apathy is selfishness), but they may have enough gumption to have voted for the chimp, or at least to support him with opinion and little "Power of Pride" bumperstickers (arrogance). The two greatest threats to our country and to the very ideals of democracy are ignorance and apathy. The arrogance comes from the retards that think its good that a moron just like them is in the White House.
Posted by: goob at August 30, 2005 06:53 PM
I got them from the WRH website. But his archive page is down. I think James saved them. Will you PLEASE e-mail me!!
Posted by: Saladin at August 30, 2005 06:54 PM
JB,
Do I think people could use the actions of our Government as an excuse to kill Americans? In a word yes.
It's pointless, John. People like Tim can't differentiate between understanding the motivations of terrorists and condoning their actions. Next thing you know, he'll call you a J-BAPT (John Benson, Immigrant Pro-Terrorist).
Posted by: Don at August 30, 2005 06:56 PM
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/19_03/military_enlistment.pdf
Posted by: No-Opinion at August 30, 2005 07:23 PM
Tom Grey - Liberty Dad;
Excellent questions, but tell me this why is it our job to answer these questions for the Bush administration? Shouldn't the Bush administration have told us how much they intended to spend (in lives, and world opinion) before they began? You ask if it was worth it, and answer your question yes. If we really have made a recruiting poster for the extremists and create Iran II how will we know tomorrow or next week? We are very likely to be paying this bill for years to come. Where would you put the downpayment as being too much, 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%?
Posted by: John Benson at August 30, 2005 07:26 PM
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/military_enlistment.pdf
Posted by: No-Opinion at August 30, 2005 07:35 PM
They said the war would cost twenty bucks, nobody would be killed, and the Iraqis' would be so grateful that the would change the name of Baghdad to Bush city.
Okay maybe that isn't what they said. But they said a lot of things, none of wich came to be true.
I will email you now Saladin.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 07:36 PM
I know you guys pay attention and all, but just have been looking at images and stories from Katrina and...WOW! Just fuckin' WOW!
Jill's oldest has been offered a year's salary, in advance, as a bonus to go organize the construction of 50,000 temporary residential trailer units, staging out of Baton Rouge. He's an engineer with Fleur Daniels, traditionally contracted to design machines to make better "stackable" corn chip products...
I mean...fuckin' WOW!
-T
Posted by: Hajji at August 30, 2005 07:41 PM
ENLISTMENT FORMS
don't pay any attention to TimL., he's just bitter that he wasn't included in the plan to demo the WTC and was unable to cash in on the frantic selling of stock options in the days just prior to 911 -
Posted by: James Ha at August 30, 2005 07:46 PM
The hurricane was horrible. I fear the worst is yet to come. They don't appear to be prepared for it. Bush was off doing PR stuff all day. 35% of the LA National Gaurd is stuck in Iraq. Disaster relief was slashed. What are these people supposed to do? From what I hear more big hurricanes are coming.
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 07:52 PM
Tim had to go, Bill O' Reilly is on. I wonder who his "terrorist helper" of the night will be?
Posted by: corky at August 30, 2005 07:56 PM
This is a good article in the Houston Chronicle from a local professor. Good stuff. I'm pasting the whole thing in case it's in the 'archives' already, where you'd have to be a subsriber.
Journalists didn't bother vetting Iraq war rationale
News media owe public an explanation and a pledge
By MICHAEL RYAN
The news media are failing to acknowledge their own responsibility for the invasion of Iraq, even as they report with glee Cindy Sheehan's antiwar protest outside George W. Bush's ranch in Crawford.
Americans are told all about Sheehan's son, Casey, a soldier killed in Iraq, and her call for the president to explain his reasons for invading Iraq and to outline his plan to leave.
But the news media ought to explain why they broke their moral covenant with the American people to provide complete, balanced, fair and accurate information about the charge to war.
Coverage of the administration's high-profile pitches to promote war was so blatantly unbalanced, the media sometimes looked like an arm of the Bush propaganda machine.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Bush, for instance, cited in 2002 a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency that allegedly said Hussein could develop nuclear weapons within six months.
In fact, the IAEA said Iraq might have a nuclear capability within six months to two years at the time of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, not within six months of September 2002. The IAEA said it had no evidence that Iraq could build a nuclear weapon.
The New York Times quoted an exiled Iraqi engineer who said Saddam Hussein had hidden throughout Iraq hundreds of bunkers for unconventional weapons research, a charge that was untrue.
Newsday published a story based on interviews with a former Iraqi air force officer and a businessman from Yugoslavia. They allegedly had "first-hand knowledge" of a chemical and biological weapons program that did not exist.
The Bush administration declared frequently that Saddam had tried to purchase from Niger yellowcake plutonium to make nuclear weapons. The documents on which that charge was based were clearly forged and contained internal inconsistencies journalists should have uncovered.
The U.S. intelligence community said the charge was groundless, but the administration used it anyway in its march to war.
Bill O'Reilly on The O'Reilly Factor asserted as early as Sept. 13. 2001, that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks and needed to be removed.
A Washington Post story did everything but declare Saddam Hussein was tied to al-Qaida. To this day, no link has been documented.
Some newspaper coverage was so awful, some journalists and newspapers took the extraordinary step of acknowledging the poor coverage in print.
The New York Times "found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been. ... Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged or failed to emerge."
The Times acknowledged that it relied too heavily on self-interested sources who were committed to regime change in Iraq, and that stories about dire claims got prominent display, while follow-up stories did not.
Howard Kurtz, who analyzed The Washington Post's coverage, reports that his newspaper seldom published on the front page stories that challenged the Bush administration. The result was coverage that "in hindsight looks strikingly one-sided at times."
The media could have found out what was really going on. Many individuals and groups tried to get journalists to look beyond the administration's exaggerated and false claims.
The National Council of Churches, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, the United Methodist Church Board of Church and Society (Bush's denomination) and the United Church of Christ all passed resolutions questioning the morality of an invasion of Iraq and asking the president to seek alternatives.
The media ignored the antiwar movement, and some tried to intimidate it so it would go away.
Mackubin Owens wrote in The Providence (R.I.) Journal of "the lunatic ravings of those who hide behind the Constitution while trying to destroy it, and whose perspective is not that different from the pathological hatred and fanaticism that motivates Osama bin Laden."
Fox News' E.D. Hill said, "But a lot of these protesters now are International Workers Party members and socialists," and the New York Daily News said that "too many [war protesters] are determinedly blind to the facts. Or sadly ignorant of them."
Most journalists failed to observe the tenets of an objective approach to journalism.
They failed because writers and editors were not skeptical of official sources; they did not evaluate evidence and alternative interpretations themselves, relying instead on the official sources' interpretations; and they were not creative in seeking information and opinion that did not support the administration's views.
A few news reporters did use an objective approach, with commendable results. Warren Strobel, Jonathan Landay and John Walcott of Knight-Ridder, for example, questioned the administration's false claim that Iraq had purchased special aluminum tubes for centrifuges that could be used to enrich uranium.
Some editorial pages Ñ such as those of The New York Times, the Houston Chronicle, and the Los Angeles Times Ñ did not take a pro-war stance. They called on the administration to do what Cindy Sheehan wants the administration to do now: tell why an invasion was necessary.
The sound journalism, however, was simply overwhelmed by the bad journalism.
Americans have a right to ask journalists how they intend to ensure that sound journalism prevails in the future for all kinds of news.
They have a right to ask what journalists will do the next time they get caught up in an administration's strategy to market a war or other action that can harm the American people.
Ryan, who teaches journalism at the University of Houston, is the co-author of "Writing for Print and Digital Media," published by McGraw-Hill.
Posted by: Alan at August 30, 2005 08:24 PM
It is a different game, now than when I was in TV and radio news, Alan. The Administration will do or say ANYTHING to sell their product. Sure they parse words, leak untruths and "Push Poll" to get their crap aired and published.
Reminds me of unscrupulous prosecutors who'll do or say ANYTHING to get a conviction, even if they KNOW a defendent is innocent.
-T
Posted by: Hajji at August 30, 2005 08:33 PM
Please. Please, please, please. You say at the outset, "I am tired of hearing about ...". Well, I for one am tired of seeing careful, rational, logical analysis of John Roberts. We all know for a fact that this guy will absolutely adhere to the Party line in all matters. Everyone who disagrees with this administration is smeared and fired.
Gen. Byrnes disagreed with Rumsfeld; slimed and fired. The NSA, according to the Wayne Madsen Report, is being purged of anyone who might disagree with the administration. You, yourself, have said that the military is being purged at the lower officer levels. The CIA has had to take loyalty oaths to the President (not the Presidency, or the country). The FBI has purged numerous excellent field agents, including Sibel Edmonds who were not, let us say, fully cooperative.
The few who had some remaining shreds of integrity and decency, like Colin Powell, are gonzo, Alonzo. So is Shinseki. As is the woman in the Army procurement office who disagreed with Halliburton's "mysterious" habit of getting no bid contracts. The list goes on and on.
Is there the remotest chance in hell that Roberts will be different in any way, after his extensive interviews with Bush, Rove, et al? Why even bother with the discussion? It's corruption on a massive scale, one that will bring the US down, or to a state where it's unrecognizable.
Let's look at the global picture here: this is frightening. Due to Dubya's unpopularity, the right wingers can, and will, declare martial law to keep themselves in power in 2008.
Posted by: Fast Eddy at August 30, 2005 08:56 PM
Come on folks, are you serious people or not. Complaining about Bush being in California and not in Mississippi is sort of silly. What do you expect him to be doing, flying one of the Coast Guard Helicopters? Lighten up!
Also, David CornÕ³ statement that he made a posting as a trap bespeaks of less than intellectual honesty. Is he a person of gravitas or just one who likes to play around with issues for his own fun by baiting people with different opinions? What are we to make about his take on the Roberts memo of 1985? He says he was substituting his opinion for scientific consensus. It seems quite the opposite. He pointed out this was Ò¡ disputed issue.Ó He suggested the president not reassure the public until there was a definite resolution. Seems to me a practical suggestion. As far as the court moving to the right, what was that 5 Ð 4 decision on the taking of private property at the end of the last term? If that wasnÕ´ a left wing decision, nothing was!
I agree that the Bush family should see a little combat before telling the lower classes they are fighting a noble war. As usual David Corn adds some nonsense to a serious matter as he does complaining about the coverage of the damage by Hurricane Katrina. For guys like Corn, and what turns off many people, is they find anything and everything anyone does other than what they approve is somehow wrong. By the way David, the death toll from the Hurricane will probably exceed the number of troops killed in combat in Iraq. It is also the worst hurricane ever to hit the American mainland. DonÕ´ let the facts get in the way of a whine
Posted by: Matt Connolly at August 30, 2005 09:36 PM
Ryan, you may recall, since you had so much to say about the press coverage before the war that the usual members of the peace groups did not come out to oppose the war. I was closely associated with a person involved in anti-war protesting and he continually complained that many of the former peace activists decided to sit on their hands and not participate in demonstrations against the war.
So it was a strange time when the usual suspects decided not to show up. So how can you blame the press when so many in the peace movement stayed home.
Posted by: Matt Connolly at August 30, 2005 09:42 PM
Saladin: Interesting post about 9/11. So the Freedom Underground in the person of Mike Eggleston knows all about the explosive devices the Bush Administration had hidden in the building waiting for the planes to hit the twin towers so that there could be a controlled demolition. It was all used, as Mike says, by the global elite as a pretext for us to go to war. Of course, Mike also correctly notes that the nineteen persons of Muslim belief were not on the planes but are hiding in caves in Afghanistan.
I was afraid this story would be exposed. But what bothers me is that Mike knows about Operation Northwoods. That was suppose to be super secret, Mike, you were not suppose to tell anyone about it. Especially, donÕt mention there was no Boeing 757 that hit the Pentagon because if you do everyone will know the people who got on that plane flew to Afghanistan to live in the caves with the 19 Muslims.
Mike and Saladin, just a suggestion, there a valid reasons to be opposed to the war in Iraq but when you start by denying the obvious then it is you who are propagating the lies and deception. Yes, dissent is patriotic but it must also be informed to be effective.
.
Posted by: Matt Connolly at August 30, 2005 09:59 PM
Don't look now folks but Cavuto is complaining over at FoxNews that he has yet to see a global relief effort for Hurricane Katrina. Is this guy for frigging real? A global relief effort to bail out the wealthiest nation in the world is almost as silly as a global effort to repair a newly liberated country smack dab on top of the world's biggest gas station. Somehow that irony escapes him.
Posted by: ed at August 30, 2005 10:05 PM
Note to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It is not global warming that caused Katrina.
From the Clarion Ledger, Mississippi
Katrina
Shades of Camille hit Mississippi
The differences between Hurricanes Camille and Katrina will long be debated. Camille was the worst storm to hit Mississippi and second worst in U.S. history, It taught many lessons and, no doubt, Katrina will also. Katrina will now go down as a serious runner-up to the worst hurricane to hit Mississippi, as losses are being tallied today from wind and water damage. With the destruction Mississippians are suffering now, it's hard to imagine worse. But when Category 5 Camille hit the same area as Katrina on Aug. 17, 1969, it was the second strongest hurricane to hit the United States, behind only an unnamed storm that hit the Florida Keys in 1935. Camille's winds were estimated at about 200 mph; a 35-foot storm tide contributed, killing many of the 172 Mississippians lost. Much has changed. There is better storm tracking now, more accurate predictions, measurements and warnings. That's the biggest improvement, with less loss of life.
Coast residents are more sensitive to evacuating, with better highways. But better evacuation services are needed; snarls and traffic jams were extensive on Sunday. Mississippi also still has difficulty in many areas regarding warnings for associated tornados, left to local communities and local taxpayers. Camille destroyed 3,880 homes and did major damage to another 41,785. But current building codes are more strict. Camille's damages were about $1.5 billion, or about $11 billion in today's dollars. But more people live on the Coast now, with billions invested in casinos and condominiums. The differences between Camille and Katrina will long be debated. Camille taught many lessons and, no doubt, Katrina will teach us more.
*****************
I recall scientists predicting a disasterous ice age in the 1970's.
Note to Chris(insert foot in mouth)Matthews
When interviewing Senator Sessions on Alabama about the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, do not refer to the Gulf Coast as the "Redneck Riviera."
Senator Sessions, being a southern gentleman, corrected you in a polite manner. Does anyone here think that if Matthews were interviewing Charlie Rangel about his congressional district he would call it the "Ghetto" instead of Harlem?
Posted by: Tim H at August 30, 2005 10:18 PM
Tim H: Best Chris Matthews interview was of Reverend William Graham, the advisor to presidents. He asked Billy if he was bothered by the deaths of so many young American soldiers and Marines in Iraq. Billy said: "no. You see war does not add to the death total. We are all going to die and so were these soldiers." Of course, Chris was thinking of his next question and failed to ask: "then why do we prosecute murderers since the people they kill are going to die anyway."
Even today, Matthews while talking to someone about the devastation in Louisiana when told that some joints on Bourbon Street that he frequents survived the storm expressed great relief. Hundreds of people dead, hundreds of thousands without electricity and running water, and Chris is worried about a gin mill.
Posted by: Matt Connolly at August 30, 2005 10:24 PM
Hajji:
I second your wow. And just to think, we are only seeing snippets of what the camera can view. Imagine what it would be like to view it all at once.
Matt:
I can only stomache Matthews for moments at a time. I always keep the remote nearby when I go anywhere near his show. I guarantee had he referred to the Gulf Coast as the "Redneck Riviera" while speaking to Zell Miller, he would have received a different answer. Zell has already challenged him to a duel. I believe he would have given Chris his choice of weapons this time.
Posted by: Tim H at August 30, 2005 10:47 PM
David Corn:
Please pardon my "trollus interruptus."
Posted by: Tim H at August 30, 2005 11:07 PM
Hurricane Cindy has been nudged from the front pages by Hurricane Katrina.
Posted by: Gerald at August 30, 2005 11:25 PM
"Hurricane Cindy" had no business being there in the first place. She had a story to tell like many other moms. Why weren't they on the front pages? Most of them do not agree with her views.
"Hurricane Cindy" has been downgraded to a "tropical squirt!"
Posted by: Tim H at August 30, 2005 11:37 PM
David Corn:
You may have set a trap but it was not perceived as you say you meant it. What really happened was that those on your forum who believe everything you say, for the most part, agreed with you. Those who disagree with you on everything you say, didn't toe the Corn line, though some did. You actually outwitted yourself. You put out your own hoax of a talking points memo and trapped the Cornliners as well as for some others. As for me, I believed you wrong all along. Blaming one individual or country for the misery of another is unwise. If you doubt me, you can easily find my posts.
Posted by: Tim H at August 30, 2005 11:56 PM
Prayers and hopes for a better tomorrow for the folks in the Big wet Easy. Too many sad stories.
If there's a silver lining to this sad day, I can't find it. The number of people who fell from the middle class into poverty increased again. 800K more folks are doing without health insurance than a year ago. "This is the first time on record that household income has failed to increase for five straight years." In order to prevent their income levels from falling, Americans worked more hours in 2003. Hmmm. I resemble that remark.
As The New Pravda notes:
"It looks like the gains from the recovery haven't really filtered down," said Phillip L. Swagel, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. "The gains have gone to owners of capital and not to workers."
That means rich folks and big corporations are doing just fine. I thought tax cuts were supposed to give them (rich capitalists) the money to create jobs that lifted the middle class boat. My bad.
How pitiful are the economic numbers whenever idiotic rich oilmen are in the White House? Strung together, they have an unblemished streak of EIGHT STRAIGHT YEARS of driving folks from the middle class into the poorhouse. Is it safe to say that "Bush" is synonymous with destruction of the middle class? (careful it's one of those pdf bastards) Here are a few mythbusters (another pdf) for those who worry about health coverage for our less fortunate neighbors.
I remember a couple of days ago, having a discussion with Timmie about the poverty level amongst American blacks being so damned high. His response was they didn't have the family values to sustain the level of income to stay out of the poorhouse. He's a bigot (natch). 'Splain me this Timmie. Are white folks so morally bankrupt that they are the main reason that poverty continues to rise in America? Are red staters to blame (since they are one of the biggest demographics to lose ground economically)? I think laying the blame on the poor and helpless is beyond mean-spirited.
It seems that the president is always to blame when oil prices rise. As I asked James the other day, remember 35 cent a gallon gas? You can't hardly get a gallon of warm piss for 35 cents these days. And this ain't helping.
If there's anything to smile about, it is brought to us by the Reactionaries (as always). One televangelist calling another (Pat Robertson) "an Osama bin Laden" doesn't sound good.
5 in the Noggin Gibson is threatening our troops for telling the truth. Is it insubordination? Treason? (what the soldier did, not 5 in the Noggin)
These guys better watch out. Obviously they don't realize that the Head of the Cheney Administration is the parent of a lesbian. Fun with Freeps.
I never understood how my brother could say, "don't tell mom I broke her favorite coffee mug. It's your fault if you tell her and she gets mad." It's our fault if Muslims find out that the Grand Ol' Torture Party scrood the pooch?
And Hajji, "fortyWonderful" is now my official theme for the next 364 days. Sal, you too?
Posted by: Pandemoniac at August 30, 2005 11:58 PM
A new wrinkle in the Plame affair?
Published: August 30 2005 03:00 | Last updated: August 30 2005 03:00 The Financial Times
An intriguing new theory has emerged in the case of Valerie Plame, the outed CIA operative.
The mainstream media has focused on Karl Rove, President Bush's chief political guru, as the source of the original story identifying Plame. The alleged motive was revenge against former ambassador Joseph Wilson, Plame's husband, an outspoken critic of the Iraq war.
Observer now hears a new angle on the story is circulating inside the Justice Department.
It involves Judith Miller, the veteran New York Times reporter currently languishing in a Virginia jail for refusing to reveal her source(s) in the Plame affair.
Many have assumed that Miller - who never actually wrote a story identifying Plame as an operative - is protecting Rove and/or other administration officials. But the missing link is that Miller is not a political reporter, but rather an investigative journalist who co-wrote a book on America's secret war against biological weapons and later published controversial articles on Iraq's effort to acquire weapons of mass destruction.
Now here's the twist: Plame herself is a CIA operative who also specialised in weapons of mass destruction and bio-terrorism. So did Miller get to know Plame while she was writing her book or even use her as a source for other WMD stories? Despite 56 days' imprisonment and a vociferous campaign to release her - Miller is staying mum.
But at some point, surely, the truth will come out.
Posted by: wrinkled at August 31, 2005 12:12 AM
Matt, you have come in on a conversation that has been ongoing for months. Operation Northwoods is a fact, but hardly a secret. If you are able to swallow the official version of 9/11, fine. It is better not to think about the hundreds of unanswered questions. Trust your govt. they love you. That is why they bombed Afghanistan and Iraq, because 19 Arabians with magical boxcutters and magical jet fuel knocked down three skyscrapers. Because they have magic powers to defy all logic and physics. We don't stand a chance against those magical cave dwellers armed with cel phones! NORAD and our Air Force are obviously a big waste of money. I bet you could hire the magic Arabs to safeguard our country for much cheaper! They also have flying carpets and genies in bottles at their command. We are helpless against them!!
Posted by: Saladin at August 31, 2005 12:21 AM
The independent commission probing the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington decided not to hear from the worker group that lost more lives than anyone else to the terrorists: The Fire Fighters. [Workday Minnesota]
--------------
We should definitely make sure we DON'T listen to any eye witness reports, especially from those unreliable fire fighters.
9/11 Firefighters: Bombs and
Explosions in the WTC
Posted by: Saladin at August 31, 2005 12:29 AM
Matt:
You must have some great powers. Saladin #91 just posted to a troll, which is, as you know,a big no-no, time-out on this site.
Note to capt
If you wait for David to stand up from posting his latest before hitting your "post button"
your nose would be closer to its' intended target. My guess is you are currently giving him a zerbert on the back of his neck. Nothing like being number one, huh?
Posted by: Tim H at August 31, 2005 12:41 AM
matt #80
"denying the obvious..." ?
ha! - what's obvious is that while something did indeed hit the pentagon, it certainly WASN'T a 757
pentagon strike
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 12:50 AM
oh, by all means don't pay any attention to someone who was actually there...
hero janitor eye-witness says WTC was controlled demolition
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 12:59 AM
Arctic Beacon? I can't believe Jason Blair hasn't picked up on this fortunate janitors story. Could it be that even Jason Blair could tell the difference between a demolition expert and a janitor? If this is the smoking gun, where is Jason's beloved Times?
Posted by: Tim H at August 31, 2005 01:06 AM
``As far as the court moving to the right, what was that 5--4 decision on the taking of private property at the end of the last term? If that wasnÕt a left wing decision, nothing was!'' Okay. So tell me why every left publication out there, whether it is Z Magazine, The Nation, Counterpunch (esp. on the web site), &c. denounced the decision as a sell-out to corporate interests? The idea that the Court would approve the use of state action to take people's homes for the private profit of big business is about is foreign to the left as one could imagine. The authoritarian right, now, that's another matter.
Posted by: Paul Lyon at August 31, 2005 01:14 AM
Paul,
Look who voted for it and who voted against it. It has nothing to do with big business. It is more about property rights. First your home, then your gun. Name for me one Justice who voted for this idiotic decision that you consider right-wing? And before you say "Kennedy" he does not count. Renquist, Scalia, Thomas & O'Conner dissented.
Posted by: Tim H at August 31, 2005 01:25 AM
Tim: Since Brennan and Marshall are gone, there is no one even vaguely left-wing on the court. Ginsburg, Breyer, et al are centrists, and not in the least on the left. Even Blackmun, as good as he was on other issues, mostly voted pro corporate interests, when it came to that. Socially liberal and economically conservative ain't left. It just ain't.
Posted by: Paul Lyon at August 31, 2005 02:13 AM
Just got back from the state fair. They were selling bobble head dolls of Bush as the republican booth. I didn't buy one because I didn't want to enter the booth. Something bad might happen.
Other than that it was a perfect day. Capped it off with James Taylor concert. He gave a great concert. His band was revved up.
Going to bed.
Posted by: Jeanne at August 31, 2005 02:14 AM
This scares tha shyt outta me. Look how many people think "living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
I really dunno what to say about that. And they wanna take time out from teaching science for equal time teaching beliefs...and our kids fall even further behind. That's about as behind you can get already! And gosh, there was an awesome show on PBS earlier called ORIGINS about that same subject. Two hours I was spellbound (luv that stuff), full of awe 'n shyt.
I just don't get how these people can limit their minds like that. "hmmph!"
Posted by: Alan at August 31, 2005 02:15 AM
This article from The Nation jumps on Doofus for comparing the Iraqi probs of writing a constitution to our own probs back then.
Bush Vs. History
Here's a couple of grafs...
Try as Bush and his followers may, they will find no historical record of Ayatollah Alexander Hamilton's militia hunting down followers of radical secularist Thomas Jefferson, nor of rival Christian gangs blowing up one another's houses of worship. Nor will they find a record of renegade Green Mountain Boys gunning down foreign troops who were supposedly present to "help young democracies succeed."
In fact, there were no foreign troops prodding the process along. The French, who played a critical role in helping the American revolutionaries throw off British colonial oppression, exited quickly. The Marquis de Lafayette, as good a friend as the American rebels had, did not return to the new republic until 1824.
Posted by: Alan at August 31, 2005 02:37 AM
and Molly's back...
Check back in
Summer's over, and the world's still here
AUSTIN -- Seems like every year at the end of summer there's this sense of coming back from somewhere, whether we've gone anywhere or not. Whatever the summer pattern is -- a swim, the kids, a stroll --- it's as though we sort of blink and there's the world again, still there. Very much still there.
I suppose if you're George W. Bush, the world never does go away no matter how long you spend on vacation; it just sort of camps at the end of your driveway like Cindy Sheehan. Those of us who study politics and the media got to watch Cindy Sheehan being slimed by the right-wing attack machine -- hey, no free passes just because you're a mom whose kid was killed in Iraq. We also get to watch left-wing PR people exploit her grief, because you can't even be for peace without public relations anymore. This is The World, after all.
Check back in on the world and find the same people making the same arguments about Iraq --
----
----
President Bush says the best way to honor the dead is by getting more of them killed for the same cause, whatever it is. Democracy in Iraq, I think. Oops. Except for women. Women didn't come out too well in the new Iraqi constitution. I'm really sorry, I know only a feminist would bring up an awkward subject like this, and I understand being a feminist is just so passŽ, and absolutely no one cares about women's issues anymore, and if I would just bother to keep up I wouldn't embarrass myself by being so pitifully old hat, so not the bee's knees, as these young people say today. On the other hand, moving the age of consent for marriage back to 9 is sort of twenty-three skiddoo itself. Iraqi women have had full civil, legal and property rights for 25 years now. Nine years old. Not a step in the right direction. Really.
=================
*gotta luv Molly
Posted by: Alan at August 31, 2005 03:22 AM
Saladin, what is up with you? You should definitely get yourself checked out. I personally actually SAW 2 planes imbedded in the Twin Towers 4 years ago. They had tons of jet fuel on them, that caught fire and generated immense heat, which softened some girders, causing the upper floors to fall downwards, causing the towers to implode. I don't find that difficult to accept at all. But no. YOU have to figure that a short while after 2 planes struck the Towers, some unnamed guys ran into the buildings and set off demolition charges. Seriously, who are you trying to convince? No one except lunatics are going to believe this tripe. Yes, 19 fanatical Muslims with boxcutters took over some planes, after taking some flying lessons, and ran them into the Twin Towers, causing the Towers to implode. Simple explanation, Occam's Razor and all that. Don't be ridiculous. I defer to no one in my dislike of George Bush, but this sort of irrationality and indeed lunacy simply damages the credibility of the anti Bush people. Next you'll be telling us that no Jews were in the buildings because they were warned off. Just stupid.
Posted by: Fast Eddy at August 31, 2005 05:38 AM
I like the Bush Twins alternative. To extend it, how about this? To qualify to submit bids for government contracts related to Iraq (also to keep existing contracts), at least 51% of the company's officers and employees (both) must either currently be in the National Guard or have served in active duty for 10 years in a branch of the service? Put onus on companies to provide documentation to qualify or preserve contractÉ.
PegMo
Posted by: PegMo at August 31, 2005 07:58 AM
Paul,
Centrists? I guess in your Neverland there are only moderates and vast-right-wingers. Say hello to Michael for me.
Posted by: Tim H at August 31, 2005 08:05 AM
This just in:
For the first time in the history of our once great nation we have had NO increase in mean wages over the last (you guessed it) FIVE years.
Bunnypants cannot hide from the numbers.
He is a piss poor manager but he has bested his daddy at being inept.
The USA arms sales have boomed, we sell 35% of all arms sold on the planet. The arms these merchants of death sell are being used against OUR military. The arms currently being sold will be used against OUR military in the future if there is an conflict with China, India, Pakistan, etc.
The difference between the poor and rich has increased and poverty is up 12.7%.
Nothing, NOTHING you delusional idiot Bunnypants supporters can say, no amount of rah-rah for the Coward in Crawford can change the simple fact that Bunnypants and his ultra wealthy "friends" are and continue to steal the public blind. ($129,00.00 per minute for Iraq)
I can understand if you were in the millionaire group that has benefited from the failed policies and pander to the wealthy, but since you are not it just makes you stupid.
If you are not one of the wealthy, you have been had. It makes no difference if you have the intellectual honesty to admit it, that would take some self-respect so I will not be holding my breath.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 31, 2005 08:27 AM
another story about the same janitor
Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.
His eye witness account, ignored by the media and the government, points the finger squarely on an official cover-up at the highest levels since the government contends the WTC fell only from burning jet fuel. And after listening to Rodriguez, it's easy to see why the Bush administration wants him kept quiet.
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 08:44 AM
Bush Economy Plunges More Americans Into Poverty Every Year
August 30th, 2005
by Trish
"Most of that growth in the economy over the last couple of years has gone to higher income people and has taken the form of capital income Ñ interest, rents, dividends."For the fourth year in a row more Americans slipped into poverty during 2004, according to a new Census Bureau report.
AP:
The nationÕs poverty rate rose to 12.7 percent of the population last year, the fourth consecutive annual increase, the Census Bureau said Tuesday.
Overall, there were 37 million people living in poverty, up 1.1 million people from 2003É
The last decline in overall poverty was in 2000, when 31.1 million people lived under the threshold Ñ 11.3 percent of the population. Since then, the poverty rate has increased steadily from 11.7 percent in 2001, when the economy slipped into recession, to 12.5 percent in 2003É
LetÕs see, what else was different in 2000? Oh yeah, America still had a working president.
So if the poor are getting poorer, whatÕs BushÕs economic plan doing for the rich?
Tim Smeeding, an economics professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University, says the nation has experienced a shift from earnings income to capital income and capital gains, which arenÕt reflected in the Census BureauÕs latest numbers.
"Most of that growth in the economy over the last couple of years has gone to higher income people and has taken the form of capital income Ñ interest, rents, dividends," Smeeding said.
ThatÕs what I thought.
*****end of clip*****
This is the insult that is "trickle down." A theory where the rich admit the actions of the administration are only in their favor. The idea being when the wealth get their pockets so full of money that a little will fall out to be scooped up by those not as fortunate. The reality is the rich use the favorable financial conditions to sew bigger pockets.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 31, 2005 08:45 AM
Well we don't have to worry about another 9/11 we just don't train anymore saudis as pilots and the deal is done. Pretty simple if you ask me and all this GWOT is a lot of hooey, you don't go to war on a tactic. Of course, the prez might need to have something more than a double digit IQ in order to figure this out. As it is, he is more concerned with a vacation than with the suffering of his population and relief for those poor souls in New Orleans that really need our help and could probably use their national guard too, along with some of the money we are dumping into that sand pit, makes you wonder where the priorites are for the fundies. I am not hearing any of them offering help to the victims of the hurricane, how about Pat Robertson send some of those shakes they could use them and falwell could send some money there too. Crap is as crap does I guess and their true colors are showing these days.
Posted by: What the F**k at August 31, 2005 08:47 AM
whatever you say Fast Eddy -
here's a photo of one of the engines from the "767" which struck the south tower - turns out it was a 737 - why would the govt. lie about the type of plane? but oh well, you're entitled to believe whatever the govt. and their whore media say if you want to -
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 08:57 AM
A new wrinkle in the Plame affair?
August 30 2005
An intriguing new theory has emerged in the case of Valerie Plame, the outed CIA operative.
The mainstream media has focused on Karl Rove, President Bush's chief political guru, as the source of the original story identifying Plame. The alleged motive was revenge against former ambassador Joseph Wilson, Plame's husband, an outspoken critic of the Iraq war.
Observer now hears a new angle on the story is circulating inside the Justice Department.
It involves Judith Miller, the veteran New York Times reporter currently languishing in a Virginia jail for refusing to reveal her source(s) in the Plame affair.
Many have assumed that Miller - who never actually wrote a story identifying Plame as an operative - is protecting Rove and/or other administration officials. But the missing link is that Miller is not a political reporter, but rather an investigative journalist who co-wrote a book on America's secret war against biological weapons and later published controversial articles on Iraq's effort to acquire weapons of mass destruction.
Now here's the twist: Plame herself is a CIA operative who also specialised in weapons of mass destruction and bio-terrorism. So did Miller get to know Plame while she was writing her book or even use her as a source for other WMD stories? Despite 56 days' imprisonment and a vociferous campaign to release her - Miller is staying mum.
But at some point, surely, the truth will come out.
*****end of clip*****
I hope Judith rots in jail. She was worthless as a so called "journalist" (as are many others) and is a mouthpiece for those slugs that are wrecking our once great nation.
Unless she can offer testimony about who is the real traitor, she is a traitorous bitch (sound familiar?).
Either way, she is part of the problem.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 31, 2005 08:59 AM
WTF,
Last week his aides said Bunnypants was on a "working" vacation, that he was doing the people business (right) from Crawford. Now they say he is cutting his VACATION short to MONITOR the hurricane?
The lap-dog "news" headlines "BUSH CUTS VACATION SHORT" . . .how much you ask? TWO DAYS!
Fuck the MSM and Fuck Bush.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 31, 2005 09:03 AM
The Score:
Hurricane Katrina- $25 billion in damage maybe 2oo dead.
Hurricane George Bunnypanties- $250 billion so far and up to 100,000 dead. Expected to last maybe 4 more years and cost another $250 billion.
Posted by: Damn_em at August 31, 2005 09:14 AM
9-11 Pentagon Plane Identified? A3 SkyWarrior with missles (or another mil. plane...?)
The interesting bit--well it's all interesting--is that there is a U.S. government based INTERNET SEARCH ENGINE CONTENT BLOCK against internet searches for this particular part found at the Pentagon crash site. Some of the information that follows thus comes from 9-11 researchers working internationally with U.S. researchers on this issue.
I took the animated gif image from the website:
http://www.physics911.net/missingwings.htm which shows the five-frame government-released pentagon video zoomed in on the area where the plane went. Looking at it over and over and at 400% zoom, I have finally reached the tentative opinion that it may be a small black military aircraft shooting a missile.
The image appears consistent with a black A3 SkyWarrior or similar aircraft as indicated by Karl Schwarz, both an aircraft specialist and a talented, resourceful investigator. http://www.karlschwarz.com
To the right in html email [here, above] is an illustrated version of frame one outlining the aircraft in red and the possible white missile trail in orange. Attached is the same file, larger, for those without html email.
In particular, the image is not consistent with a shiny airplane of any sort. The only reflection appears to come from the forward area, near where the cockpit windows or front edge of the wings might be.
Look at this image of an American 757. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/745215/L/ The plane is almost entirely silver, and the tail is close to white and has clear and large markings on it. Now look at the plane in the image attached [aircraftoutlined.jpg] or on the web [here, above].
Everything is black, and the sun is shining directly on it, as evidenced by the angle of the shadow on the box-shaped thing in the foreground, so there is no way the darkness could be shadow..
In the image attached, aircraftoutlined.jpg, you will see the red outline of the likely airplane and the orange outline of the possible missile trail. If you look at the image directly following this one in the five frame animation http://physics911.net/e-pentagon_animation.gif, you will be able to compare and contrast the two frames in order to establish other parameters that require a relational view of both frames. It is useful to view the images at 200-400% zoom and frame by frame slowly. Programs like the freeware Irfanview http://irfanview.com/ can zoom the file adequately.
There is almost no question that there is in fact some sort of white exhaust trail consistent with a missile trail in this image [aircraftoutlined.jpg]. * [and INCONSISTENT with a 757; as well a hundred other facts that belie a 757 at the Pentagon]
Any contention that a 757 hit the Pentagon must deal with what that white cloud-like apparition is and as well how come the tail of the plane in the photograph is black. *
Black ops comes to mind.
I would be interested in going over these two images on the phone (505.982.3609) with anyone interested in order to describe the many difficult-to-put-in-words nuances. If these images do not come through, check them out online:
Pentagon Security Camera Frame 1 zoomed with outlines:
http://www.physics911.net/aircraftoutlined.jpg
*****end of clip*****
Who cares whether a person is anti-Bush or pro-Bush, to abandon your critical thinking mind in favor of an official lie gives all humans a bad name.
I think that makes "Eddy" slow not fast by any measure.
"this sort of irrationality and indeed lunacy simply damages the credibility of the anti Bush people"
That is all you Edwardo. Nobody posting here represents the "anti-Bush people" we just have our own VALID points of view. Not all in agreement but we DO respect other views, it is called tolerance, try it sometime, you will be a better person for it.
capt
Posted by: capt at August 31, 2005 09:17 AM
Post # 104,
Fast Eddy, these people on this blog with their delusional conspiracy theories are the Republican's BIGGEST ASSET!! Screw campaigning or TV ads, who needs them when the FRINGE KOOK Left is driving mainstream voters away!
Posted by: Tim L at August 31, 2005 09:24 AM
Tim L (not you it is me)
Why do you leave our echo chamber to post on the Corn?
They are just fringe kooks? Do you really desire to be included in that group?
You are just another Cornbot if you play in their sandbox, you will lose your stellar creditials as a conservative if you continue.
The echo chamber is lost without you. Come home.
I hear the WH is going to let us rape a whole little league T-ball team, get it "T-ball".
Better hurry.
Tim - The real Major Conservative.
Posted by: Tim at August 31, 2005 09:34 AM
Capt said:
"Who cares whether a person is anti-Bush or pro-Bush, to abandon your critical thinking mind in favor of an official lie gives all humans a bad name."
Capt, you are abandoning your critical thinking, or at least what's left of it. Capt, is it so entertaining to watch you, you are so consumed by your hatred of George W. Bush, that you're willing to BELIEVE ANYTHING!! Even your
lover-boy David Corn doesn't believe 9/11 was a conspriracy!
"That is all you Edwardo. Nobody posting here represents the "anti-Bush people" we just have our own VALID points of view. Not all in agreement but we DO respect other views, it is called tolerance, try it sometime, you will be a better person for it."
Nobdy represents the anti-Bush people?? ROFLMAO!! You couldn't GIVE Bush one ioata of CREDIT if your life depended on it!.
There are not a bunch of "valid points of view" when it comes to the TRUTH, which you so despise. The story is either TRUE or it's not true. There can be many FALSE storis of an event, but there is only ONE TRUE story.
Posted by: Tim L at August 31, 2005 09:37 AM
wow am I driving away voters? - what a shame huh?
airline investors seem to be lying low
Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data.
The uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors -- whose identities and nationalities have not been made public -- had advance knowledge of the strikes.
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 09:45 AM
"wow am I driving away voters? - what a shame huh?"
Yeah, just ask Michael Moore and George Soros how good they were at helping John Kerry get elected lol!
Posted by: Tim L at August 31, 2005 09:49 AM
Post #117
You don't fool me, I know it's you Capt!
Posted by: Tim L at August 31, 2005 09:51 AM
Tim L,
There can be many FALSE storis of an event, but there is only ONE TRUE story.
Abslolutely! That's like Kerry saying he was for teh war before he was against it! ROTFLMAO! Or was it teh other way around? ROTFLMAO! ROTFLMAO! GIBBLEONTHEGRABBITSNIFFLEONTHESNOFF!
By the way, I think me, you, Tim, Tim, Tim, and Tim should get together for a sit-down sometime soon. I'll bring the baby oil!
See you soon!
Posted by: Another Tim at August 31, 2005 09:52 AM
Capt, as I said before, grazing where they're told to. And why do they keep bringing up the NY Times? That's just another useless rag, like all the others.
Posted by: Saladin at August 31, 2005 10:16 AM
Capt. It would be nice if you were more serious about 9/11. These stories about other planes hitting the pentagon and the World Trade Towers seem to fail to account for the people who got on the scheduled airlines and are now deceased. A simple question: "What happened to those people?" Are they, as Saladin would have it, hiding in caves in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Matt Connolly at August 31, 2005 10:16 AM
please allow me to drive away some more voters - beat it you voters!
We are told that the group that planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks were highly trained (possibly by the CIA) experts, with knowledge of how to steal identities and forge fake IDs, yet at the same time we are being told that these men were incapable of correctly filling in US visa applications.
Posted by: James Ha at August 31, 2005 10:19 AM
Matt,
I do not know you and you do not know me.
I am very serious.
So